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Francis's comments "'Empirical Fact' That Many Clergy Are Gay" (homosexuality)

posted by Zedinhim(R), 07.13.2015

Zed’s response in (bold) with parentheses.

Fezik you keep original text.

Of course some of our differences come from preconceived notions,
(Adj.1. Preconceived - (of an idea or opinion) formed beforehand; especially without evidence or through prejudice; Yes: That’s it!!A bit on the passive side, but I guess I can’t disagree with you on that one)
but my question really is whether or not we could each truly believe in God and yet be led into so many different directions if all teachings come from God directly? (My answer is NO!! If you think all teaching comes from God, you are greatly mistaken) My hope is not to be right, but to be submissive to God... there's no vain reasoning behind my belief system and that belief system is leading me to Church, why would I be led into such a false understanding if God is teaching me directly? (How is that God is teaching you directly when you told me that your teaching/interpretations comes from your bishops and priests with preconceived notions? What dose truth has in common with false doctrines? Even in evangelical establishments that are supposed to rely solely on scripture, you will find preconceived notions being taught through citing a few random verses and a whole bunch of reading in between the lines causing a different Gospel outcome, We need to be aware!)
I am aware that many NT letters were to the whole Churches, (So dose this now mean you are willing to retract your original blanket statement that scripture is exclusive to bishop and priest Fezik>”Which of us is authorized to interpret the Scriptures? I believe none of us... those verses which speak against divisions were read to the same Masses that received the interpretation of the Bishops and priests that the New Testament Scriptures were written to”)
but some (1st and 2nd Timothy and Titus) were directed to the leaders and explaining to them how to conduct their masses.( Not to conduct their masses!! In both cases with Timothy and Titus, Paul was imprisoned at this time and Paul sent personal messages to his entrusted co workers to complete establishing the congregations he had started) Whether you prefer the term "priest" or "elder",(Elder, deacon, overseer, leaders, teachers, pasters, shepherd, no problems, I’m a bit iffy with the term bishop, but never ever priest! Priests offered sacrifices repeatedly, but the sacrifices could never make people perfect, because they could never take away sins. Christ offered himself as a sacrifice. By that one act he completed his sacrificial work and brought perfect cleansing to all believers (Hebrews 10:1-4; Hebrews 10:11-14). Christians can now enter God’s presence. They need no earthly priest to mediate on their behalf. Through Christ they can come to God directly and confidently, knowing that they can depend on Christ’s help in pleading for their needs before God (Hebrews 4:14-16; Hebrews 7:25; Hebrews 9:24; Hebrews 10:19-22; Romans 8:34; 1 John 2:1; ) Titus 1:5 shows that they were to be appointed for every town. What is the purpose of this? (The sheep need shepherds, not hired hands with exclusive rights to scripture feeding the sheep selective scripture.)

You said, "The apostles did not established priests amongst the congregation, they were no longer required."

That is simply not true. Aside from Titus 1:5, (Titus 1:5 Says elders not priest) there is Revelation 1:6 which states that the apostles were presently, at that very moment, kings and priests who reigned on the earth. (All God’s people are priests!!
The words recorded in Exodus 19:5-6 applied to the Old Testament people of God, but in the New Testament the same words are applied to the new people of God, the Christian church. Christ’s people are now God’s chosen race, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; cf. Revelation 1:6; Revelation 5:9-10)

1 Timothy 5:17 says that they were worthy of double honour, as they were the ones whose responsibility it is to teach the word and doctrine. Acts 20:28, Paul prepares to leave the elders (or "presbyters"/priests) and notes that the Holy Spirit appointed them to oversee the Church. The list goes on, but this is all in fulfilment of OT prophecy, for example, Isaiah 61:6 which speaks of the coming of the Messiah and says: (I don’t see priests playing a role in the congregation, not in my bible. I see elders, as for elders teaching word and doctrine, it’s not exclusive! 1 Corinthians 14:26” What is it then, brothers? When you come together, each one of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has another language, has an interpretation. Let all things be done to build each other up.”)

But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. (See my reply above,)

I agree with what he wrote re: Evangelicalism. Do you feel that Evangelical churches can survive in the U.S. even if they can't operate legally (He said” Many Evangelicals will be forced to go underground, and worship as small groups in their homes.” I agree) I don't, and his opinion that it is due to lack of solid foundation is insightful... not derogatory. (No way! It’s more like the other way around, the Evangelicals have their foundation in Christ “The Word”, and rome’s foundation is based on those preconceived notions called traditions of men.)

You quoted Colossians 4:15, Romans 16:5, etc... good finds. The problem is that they were still small, they were still building the structures.. They used houses in the beginning. Like I said, I see nothing to suggest that a small group of people constitute a Church simply by gathering, unless you are talking about the Church as the body of Christ. (Well yes, Christ only built one body, nothing about building structures of a secondary church establishment you call a physical church!!) BUT this 'church' exists only through the Sacrament of the Eucharist (Nonsense! The body exists through believers in Christ and baptism of the Holy Spirit, untouched from mans hands, nothing in the bible about rome’s mass, eucharist, Transubstantiation, host, monstrance and all that magical chanting from their OT preists dragged through the cross as though Christ eternal sacrifice was insufficient.) (1 Cor 10:14-22) I only offered one verse before, I think that you will understand what I hoped to get across if you read the whole passage..(Wow Fezik, now that’s a long stretch and you did it by using a passage that is warning against idolatry) Anyway, they gathered wherever they could in the beginning. The structure seems irrelevant, what was being done is what made it a Church.

By "physical Church", I mean.. not the spiritual Church. How is it that the Church bears no resemblance to that in the NT? Because it has grown? What has changed that is not due to growth? When John was sent to Patmos, he could no longer participate in the "church" with his brothers and sisters.. but God gave him the most incredible opportunity that I could ever imagine... a glimpse of the reality. He showed him the ultimate battle between good and evil, which has been taking place most prominently since the crucifixion of Christ.. and if you allow yourself to notice, he showed him the Mass from the other side. The Mass is what happens when heaven meets the earth.. it is a participation with the holy saints and all of God's angels. You can't deny that the Church bears a striking resemblance to the OT temple.. the one that God commanded be built exactly to His specifications, the one that was "a pattern of things in the heavens" (Hebrews 9:23). I believe that we have the opportunity to participate in the Mass that God described:(I believe that when you are participating in mass, you are participating in more preconceived notions that has gone way beyond what is written)

In Revelation 1:12, 2:5 you find the seven golden candlesticks. In Revelation 15:5 we find the tabernacle, like those used to house the Eucharist in the Catholic Church. Revelation 19:9, there is a call to the wedding supper of the Lamb. In Revelation 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, and 16:7.. there is an altar. Why an altar? I believe that it is connected to the image of Christ as a slain Lamb in heaven. In Revelation 15:3-4, the angels are singing... just as we sing the Psalms. In Revelation 15:6, the angels were robed with white linen and golden sashes. In Revelation 14:4, they had kept themselves consecrated... chaste. In Revelation 6:9, the slain are held beneath the altar. In Revelation 2:17, Christ has hidden manna for those who are victorious. In Revelation 5:8 and 8:3, Christ was offered the prayers of the saints with the smoke from the golden bowls of incense. (The Bible speaks of no literal altar for the Christians; only of the figurative ‘altar’ of Christ’s atoning death. Sacrificial altars and their accompanying festivals belong to the old Jewish religion and have no place in Christianity. When certain Jews in the early church were tempted to combine Christian faith with sacrificial rituals, the writer to the Hebrews told them that such a combination is impossible. If people continue to join in eating sacrifices offered on the Jewish altar, they cannot join in receiving benefits from the sacrifice offered on the Christian ‘altar’, which is the atoning death of Christ. Hebrews 13:10; 1 Corinthians 9:13; 1 Corinthians 10:18)

You said:
God's people are meant to live by the ecclesia pattern -together in communities, holding all things common, under the government of God through the apostles.

Do you feel that this community that is ruled by the government of God exists.. without divisions? Where? (No.... But that is the ideal, don’t you think?)


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