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Francis's comments "'Empirical Fact' That Many Clergy Are Gay" (homosexuality)

posted by fezik82(R), Ohio, 07.08.2015

Of course some of our differences come from preconceived notions, but my question really is whether or not we could each truly believe in God and yet be led into so many different directions if all teachings come from God directly? My hope is not to be right, but to be submissive to God... there's no vain reasoning behind my belief system and that belief system is leading me to Church, why would I be led into such a false understanding if God is teaching me directly?

I am aware that many NT letters were to the whole Churches, but some (1st and 2nd Timothy and Titus) were directed to the leaders and explaining to them how to conduct their masses. Whether you prefer the term "priest" or "elder", Titus 1:5 shows that they were to be appointed for every town. What is the purpose of this?

You said, "the apostles did not established priests amongst the congregation, they were no longer required."

That is simply not true. Aside from Titus 1:5, there is Revelation 1:6 which states that the apostles were presently, at that very moment, kings and priests who reigned on the earth. 1 Timothy 5:17 says that they were worthy of double honour, as they were the ones whose responsibility it is to teach the word and doctrine. Acts 20:28, Paul prepares to leave the elders (or "presbyters"/priests) and notes that the Holy Spirit appointed them to oversee the Church. The list goes on, but this is all in fulfillment of OT prophecy, for example, Isaiah 61:6 which speaks of the coming of the Messiah and says:

But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

I agree with what he wrote re: Evangelicalism. Do you feel that Evangelical churches can survive in the U.S. even if they can't operate legally? I don't, and his opinion that it is due to lack of solid foundation is insightful.. not derogatory.

You quoted Colossians 4:15, Romans 16:5, etc... good finds. The problem is that they were still small, they were still building the structures.. they used houses in the beginning. Like I said, I see nothing to suggest that a small group of people constitute a Church simply by gathering, unless you are talking about the Church as the body of Christ. BUT this 'church' exists only through the Sacrament of the Eucharist (1 Cor 10:14-22)... I only offered one verse before, I think that you will understand what I hoped to get across if you read the whole passage. Anyway, they gathered wherever they could in the beginning. The structure seems irrelevant, what was being done is what made it a Church.

By "physical Church", I mean.. not the spiritual Church. How is it that the Church bears no resemblance to that in the NT? Because it has grown? What has changed that is not due to growth? When John was sent to Patmos, he could no longer participate in the "church" with his brothers and sisters.. but God gave him the most incredible opportunity that I could ever imagine... a glimpse of the reality. He showed him the ultimate battle between good and evil, which has been taking place most prominently since the crucifixion of Christ.. and if you allow yourself to notice, he showed him the Mass from the other side. The Mass is what happens when heaven meets the earth.. it is a participation with the holy saints and all of God's angels. You can't deny that the Church bears a striking resemblance to the OT temple.. the one that God commanded be built exactly to His specifications, the one that was "a pattern of things in the heavens" (Hebrews 9:23). I believe that we have the opportunity to participate in the Mass that God described:

In Revelation 1:12, 2:5 you find the seven golden candlesticks. In Revelation 15:5 we find the tabernacle, like those used to house the Eucharist in the Catholic Church. Revelation 19:9, there is a call to the wedding supper of the Lamb. In Revelation 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, and 16:7.. there is an altar. Why an altar? I believe that it is connected to the image of Christ as a slain Lamb in heaven. In Revelation 15:3-4, the angels are singing... just as we sing the Psalms. In Revelation 15:6, the angels were robed with white linen and golden sashes. In Revelation 14:4, they had kept themselves consecrated... chaste. In Revelation 6:9, the slain are held beneath the altar. In Revelation 2:17, Christ has hidden manna for those who are victorious. In Revelation 5:8 and 8:3, Christ was offered the prayers of the saints with the smoke from the golden bowls of incense.

You said:
God's people are meant to live by the ecclesia pattern -together in communities, holding all things common, under the government of God through the apostles.

Do you feel that this community that is ruled by the government of God exists.. without divisions? Where?

I asked The Lord how much He loved me

He stretched out His arms and said, "this much"

Then He died for me


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