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Pro Rege (For the King)


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My thoughts on the Reformation (video-photo)

posted by fezik82(R), Ohio, 10.12.2014

I'm glad that you're hoping to generate discussion, I was starting to feel like a nuisance!

My point with Sola Scriptura was that it was just one of the contradictions I hold against Luther. I think that it's an odd concept to outline in his 56 volume set! That really seems to be the only place where we can find Sola Scriptura, though... outside of the Bible.

I really do understand why you would be upset with the Church, I wish there wasn't as much embarrassing history.. I don't really have anything to say about what should have been done, I just don't know... but when I can sit back and ask myself whether God guided Luther to start this movement considering all of the gates that it opened, I can emphatically say "no". God was not behind his thoughts on the Jews and the death he incites on them once he broke free, He was not behind the drunkenness that got him excommunicated, He was absolutely not behind Luther's belief in faith without deeds, or behind his wish to delete the NT books that expose this new teaching as heresy. Luther took on the same arrogance that he accused the Church of, he let it go to his head that some followed him and started going so far as claiming "whoever teaches otherwise than I teach is a child of hell". Why would God guide him to divide the Church? If this wasn't a movement ordered by God... then what should I be left to believe?

When Luther broke away, many that he claimed as followers followed only because they opposed the Decree of the Diet of Spires and wanted to break away from their States. There is nothing in that Treatise that anybody can claim would do anything but build the faith... but they wanted their freedom from moral obligation. Luther did for todays heretical sects what contraception did for abortion... built a bridge.

I'm sorry, but I really disagree about the Indulgences... an Indulgence isn't a pardon for sin. It is a relief from a temporal punishment for sins that have already been confessed and repented of. It is a horrible sin to sell Indulgences, I am glad that you're offended... but Pope Leo X never sold them. There were some who went outside of the Church's permission and took in money for Indulgences, there were also anti-popes. There's a Church over here in Cleveland that claims to be 'Roman Catholic' and they teach heretical doctrines while playing brothel music, like "House of the Rising Sun"... that shouldn't be held against the Church. What the Pope did was granted that some Indulgences worked towards those who would give alms towards the building of St. Peter's Basilica. To my understanding, an Indulgence is basically a prayer and blessing, and it was offered to those who gave to the Church in charity. Jesus didn't sell blessings, but He offered a blessing to the widow who gave her last mite as alms to the Jerusalem temple. I am not trying to be pretentious, but I don't see the difference in Jesus' blessing in return for charity as opposed to the Popes?

In reference to the Inquisition, there was a need for some sort of combat of heresy... but please hear me out, because I do know what the Inquisition entailed and I don't defend the entire outcome! In Spain, both Moors and Jews pretended to be Christians and were baptized (some even became bishops) only to undermine the Church from the inside. It's most often portrayed as though the big bad Catholics just invaded Spain and ordered both Jews and Muslims to leave... but there was a reason that the Church was being defensive and that is too often overlooked. There isn't an anti-Jewish bone in my body... but can you imagine the damage that Jews, and especially Muslims, can do to the Church if they get inside and teach as though they are given the authority as the Church of God? Something needed to be done, it got nasty... and a lot of Catholics died, too. But... I don't feel that this can be used as support for Martin Luther because he believed that we will be held accountable for not killing the Jews when we had the chance... and this was after he took on the belief of 'faith alone'. I can't imagine that the Inquisition weighed heavily on him.

I could be wrong, but I was taught that Luther was excommunicated for his drunkenness and, to his own admission, immoral tendencies. But when you said,

"The times made it impossible for Luther to remain in the Catholic Church and try to reform it. He tried to reform it, but he had to get out - or be killed."

That, to me, just goes to show that the Catholic Church wasn't exactly the only villain in the Inquisition. Though too many took it too far, Martin Luther broke away and became the greatest heretic of his time in the eyes of the Church... yet he did not die at the Church's hands. I don't know which killed him, but he suffered from Ménière's disease, vertigo, fainting, tinnitus, kidney and bladder stones, arthritis, an ear infection, and angina pectoris, along with a slew of more minor ailments. I'm starting to consider that PureWord might be right, maybe God does favor him with good health for his faith.

I'm leaving this for the bottom... I'm hoping that most people got bored of reading and skip past this! But I have an obligation to my conscience to say this... in horrible fear! Luther didn't free anyone from any moral bounds of conscience as he had hoped, at least not outside of his own head. He did what the Church feared would happen if the Bible got outside of their hands. They were aware what could happen, it's happened throughout history... the text was available and corrupted before. The Gnostics used it to deny the humanity of Christ, the Arians denied the Divinity... the Nestorians made Him two distinct individuals, the human and the divine. The Scriptures get altered outside of the Church and I know that I am going to become a punching bag for suggesting this, but what was the first thing that happened after the protests? 11 entire books were removed from the Bible! The remainder was suggested to imply that, "No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day" and that since we have faith in Christ, we are nothing short of being encouraged to, "Be a sinner and sin boldly". That's straight from Luther! The Bible should have stayed in the Church... they were the writers and the compilers, and in there they wrote, "do not give what is holy to dogs" and "do not toss your pearls before the swine". Now there's no choice, the Bible is being used to condone abortion and homosexuality... the dogs have it. I am not saying that everyone who has it will abuse it, I'm not saying that only those in the Catholic Church won't distort it... or that all of those in the Church won't! But, I would give up my right to own it if that kept it where it could remain pure.

I asked The Lord how much He loved me

He stretched out His arms and said, "this much"

Then He died for me


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