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Who is Babylon (One world religion?) (Islam Danger)

posted by fezik82(R), Ohio, 10.01.2014
(edited by fezik82 on 10.01.2014)

You said:

Zed> Ok allow me to try again, 1 Corinthians 11:23-26
23 "For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim(shew) the Lord’s death until he comes."

1. It is an occasion for remembrance
2. It is an occasion for fellowship
3. It is proclaiming the Lord’s redemptive work for all mankind

I'm not slow, I just agree with you on all three accounts ;-). But like I said before, the fact that we are 'remembering' or 'reminding ourselves of' Christ's offering while repeating it as He commanded does not detract from whether or not that offering is literally being re-presented to God. I understand you very well on this point, but I still insist that neither of us can make or break an argument with the concept. 2 Peter 1:13 demonstrates quite well that though we are given "reminders", the spiritual aspect remains. I could use this passage just as well to support my belief... but it's not strong enough to convince you and I know that... so I'd say (as much as I hate this phrase) that on this account, these four verses, we will have to agree to disagree. I have to do a bit of searching, but I remember years ago an ancient writing that described that when Paul said, "do this", he raised the bread. So when he said, "do this.. in remembrance of me"... he was raising the bread. I hope that I can find that...

I'm not trying to convince you with this, but I will tell you how I understand it. You summed it up beautifully in no. 2... "it is an occasion for fellowship". The chief liturgy of the second Temple era was the "fellowship offering of thanksgiving" (Greek, eucharistia; Leviticus 7:13). It was ordained by God as a tradition that could NEVER be broken (Leviticus 23:21)... it was an offering demanded of the people at the feast of Pentecost in Leviticus 23. This offering was not complete without the meat, unleavened bread (Leviticus 7:11-21), and wine "offered" to God to show that they recognize that though they were delivered, it was by God. This is how God taught His believers to thank Him, and they were a shadow of the future. Much like the meat of the Paschal lamb, every morsel must be eaten of this thanksgiving (eucharistic) offering (verse 15). They did not physically sacrifice their offering, the high priest did... but they "remembered" this sacrifice that the priest made for them to present to God when they ate it. How could they not? But the fact that they "remembered" did not make the calf any less calf... please understand, I keep rewording that to not sound cocky, but I can't figure out how else to get that point across! Anyway, they also "remembered" that they must be ceremonially clean by accompanying the meat with unleavened bread (very similar again to the description of the bread which the apostles offered in 1 Corinthians 11). There's no doubt that believers today are to present offerings to God, He foretold that they would (Malachi 3:3)... and again, demanded that the fellowship offering remain through all generations (Lev 23:21)! Just as the apostles did, we present to God our "spiritual sacrifices" (1 Peter 2:5)... our fellowship offering of thanksgiving.

You said:

Zed> The believer who tries to relate to God through the old system will fail Rom 7:1-25

I really feel that you must have misworded that statement. Or maybe you are just confusing what I mean? I'll tell you right now, I don't walk to Jerusalem with my firstborn lamb every year to make a sacrifice... but I understand that He was reminding us of sin and preparing us for the fulfillment in Christ. I don't wipe blood on my doorframe, but I just looked at my cross references in two different (non-Catholic) Bibles and found that Exodus 12:23 cross references Revelation 9:4 in both of them. Do you understand why? I could not agree more with you that Paul does not suggest keeping the law, and trust me... I don't do much at all in the same way that ancient Israel did... but I see them as a pattern for the future, for me. I think that the chapter you gave me to read was fantastic to demonstrate my view on the topic. For example, verse 6 says:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

The written law is gone... the old way is gone... but we "serve" in the new way of the Spirit. Verse 14 tells us that the old law is spiritual, verse 16 says that the old law is good... he explains throughout the chapter that you cite that it was through the law that he learned the truth. He couldn't be more clear that the law makes us conscious of reality. Paul does not live by the letter of the law, he doesn't walk to Jerusalem to bring His sacrifices yearly, either... but he wants us to remember the old so that we can understand the new... he makes comparisons repeatedly (ex. 1 Cor 10:10).

You said:

Zed> New Testament writers considered the religion of Israel a “copy and shadow” of greater spiritual realities revealed in Jesus. Col 2:17, Heb 8:5-8,

I wish that you would understand that I am not disagreeing with you, that I am very conscious of the fact that we must recognize the spiritual realities in Christ. I hope this doesn't come across wrong or rudely, but my issue with what you believe is that you seem to confuse "spiritual" and "symbolic". They have different meanings. I do take the spiritual route, but my beliefs seem to be too eccentric for you because you believe that everything in the OT is a metaphor rather than an allusion. Metaphor's don't work with the shadow analogy that Paul gives. I don't feel that you see shadows, copies, or allusions from the OT in the NT. You separate the Judaic religion from the Christian religion too much... He created the Jewish religion to show us in a way that is simple for our puny human minds to comprehend what He can't physically "show" us... the spiritual.

You said:

Zed> “those who eat and drink unworthily” Let's Look at the context of these verses, they seems to begin around verse 16 of 1 Cor. 11. Paul mentions people who are contentious, and that there were divisions among them (v. 18). He also mentions people getting drunk in v. 21. Paul then says in verse 22, "Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you."
It is after this that Paul speaks more directly about communion and how it represents the Body and Blood of Christ. In verse 26 he says, "as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes." Paul relates the communion to the sacrifice of Christ and then says to examine one's self in verse 28. It seems most probable that Paul is telling people to examine their motives, make sure there is no dissension with other believers, to take the supper solemnly, and that they were to rightly understand that it represents the sacrifice of Christ.

Again, I agree... but reread it, because I think that you may be overlooking something. He doesn't want them to view it as a physical meal or an occasion to gather together and party, which is what they were doing. It's what he describes and what you described. This was dangerous to him because they missed the spiritual aspect of the gathering... they were treating the bread and wine as something unholy... as normal food. No disrespect, but that's how my Protestant friends tend to view it, as well. He goes on to show just how holy it is and tells them that they will be damned if they don't "discern the body" when they eat the bread. I don't see the verse says that, "it represents the Body and Blood of Christ"? That's not what Christ said, and it is not what Paul said, either... but it can be found in the Jehovah's witnesses version.

You said:

Zed>It’s a good question and a very important one. His Church, body or ecclesia (congregation or the called out ones), called out by God. Not made with human hands. Mk 14:58
1 corithian 6 19” Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;”
Ephesians 5:23(b)” Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.”

I don't know how to respond but to say 'good job'.

I asked The Lord how much He loved me

He stretched out His arms and said, "this much"

Then He died for me


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