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I just got a call from a very nice Jehovah Witness man who made some good points against the concept of the Trinity. As you know, Jehovah Witnesses do not believe that Jesus is God (one with the Father), and they do not believe in a Triune God.

- Didn't Jesus constantly defer to the Father as greater than Himself?

- Didn't Moses tell Israel there is only 1 God?

- Did any Christian even believe in a Trinity prior to the 5th century? Is there any evidence the Apostles taught a Trinity?

No Christian (including Catholic priests and mainline Protestant Ministers) believes there are "three gods in one".

Christians believe there are 3 persons, all having the same substance. These 3 persons are infinitely coexistent, coeternal, and coequal. They each have their own "natures". For evidence of this we look to the holy Bible and scripture.

Remember, when Jesus was being baptized by John the Baptist, the Father's voice was heard to say; "this is my Son". Also present was the Holy Spirit. See Matthew 3:16-17.

The plurality of God is is also demonstrated in Genesis 1:26 where Jehovah says; "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." It's obvious God is not talking to angels here. Since we know from Isaiah 43:10-11 that there is not any God other than Jehovah (aka: Yahweh, I Am, Yeshua/Jesus), then Jehovah is talking to the Son and the Holy Spirit --who are equal in substance to Jehovah. This plurality is repeated in Scripture often enough. For instance at the Tower of Babel Jehovah says in Genesis 11:7, "let us go down, and there confound their language."

Psalm 45 & Hebrews 1 speaks of this "plurality" also:


Psalm 45 6-7:
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Hebrews 1 8-9:
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And what did Jesus say of this Triune God? In Matthew 28:19 we know that Jesus said; "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus is another "Comforter", just like and equal to the Holy Spirit. In John 14:16, we are told by John that Jesus said; "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever." Jesus told us all we need to know, when He told us: I and my Father are one John 10:30. Speaking of Jesus in Colossians 2:9 we read: "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." And, Jesus knows in advance what the Father "shall" do.

Something that is very germane to this discussion is that Jesus performed miracles in His own name. And Jesus forgave sins in His own name.

And what power did Jesus have to call on the other two (Father & Holy Spirit)? In John 15:26 Jesus said: "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me." Why did Jesus have this power? Jesus answered this while speaking to His apostles. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matthew 28:18

What happened before Jesus became incarnate? In Luke 1:35 we read: "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

So what is God? God is an awesome, infinite, loving Spirit and light. God is incapable of lying or sinning. Therefore we can thoroughly believe that those who repent and place their Faith in the Lord Jesus will merit eternal Life. Because Jesus who is God also told us so.

And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28

...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:4

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:14-17

Jesus said:
I and my Father are one. John 10:30

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Matthew 1:23

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder: and his name will be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 (written: 712 BC (Before Christ)

And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. Luke 7:16

"- Did any Christian even believe in a Trinity prior to the 5th century? Is there any evidence the Apostles taught a Trinity?"

Yes! I can't believe how uneducated and unread these Jehovah's Witnesses are. It's stupifying!

Early Church Fathers on the Trinity (pre-fifth century):

Athenagoras

For, as we acknowledge a God, and a Son his Logos, and a Holy Spirit, united in essence, - the Father, the Son, the Spirit because the Son is intelligence, reason, wisdom of the Father, and the Spirit an effluence, as light from fire; so also do we apprehend the existence of other powers, which exercise dominion about matter, and by means of it (A Plea for the Christians, 2:18 [A.D. 177]).

Irenaeus

For the Son, who is the Word of God, arranged these things beforehand from the beginning, the Father being in no want of angels, in order that He might call the creation into being, and form man, for whom also the creation was made; nor, again, standing in need of any instrumentality for the framing of created things, or for the ordering of those things which had reference to man; while, [at the same time,] He has a vast and unspeakable number of servants. For His offspring and His similitude do minister to Him in every respect; that is, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Word and Wisdom; whom all the angels serve, and to whom they are subject (Against Heresies 4:7:4 [A.D. 180-190]).


Theophilus of Antioch


The three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His Wisdom (To Autolycus 2:18 [A.D. 181]).


Clement of Alexandria

And the address in the Timœus calls the creator, Father, speaking thus: ‘Ye gods of gods, of whom I am Father; and the Creator of your works.’ So that when he says, ‘Around the king of all, all things are, and because of Him are all things; and he [or that] is the cause of all good things; and around the second are the things second in order; and around the third, the third,’ I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father (The Stromata 5:14 [A.D. 202]).

Hippolytus

A man, therefore, even though he will it not, is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject, Himself excepted, and the Holy Spirit; and that these, therefore, are three. But if he desires to learn how it is shown still that there is one God, let him know that His power is one. As far as regards the power, therefore, God is one. But as far as regards the economy there is a threefold manifestation, as shall be proved afterwards when we give account of the true doctrine (Against the Heresy of One Noetus 8 [A.D. 200-210]).

Tertullian

…All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (Against Praxeus 2 [A.D. 213]).


…all the Scriptures attest the clear existence of, and distinction in (the Persons of) the Trinity, and indeed furnish us with our Rule of faith…. (ibid. 11[A.D. 213]).


Origen


…the divine benefits [are] bestowed upon us by Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which Trinity is the fountain of all holiness…. (On First Principles 1:4:2 [A.D. 220-230]).


And under this rule must be brought also the understanding of the sacred Scripture, in order that its statements may be judged not according to the worthlessness of the letter, but according to the divinity of the Holy Spirit, by whose inspiration they were caused to be written (ibid. 4:27 [A.D. 220-230]).


Now this expression which we employ – ‘that there never was a time when He did not exist’ – is to be understood with an allowance. For these very words ‘when’ or ‘never’ have a meaning that relates to time, whereas the statements made regarding Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity. For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of temporal but even of eternal intelligence; while other things which are not included in it are to be measured by times and ages (ibid. 4:28 [A.D. 220-230]).


Gregory Thaumaturgus


There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything superinduced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides forever (Declaration of Faith [circa A.D. 250]).

Gregory Nazianzen

But [the faithful] worship the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, one Godhead; God the Father, God the Son and (do not be angry) God the Holy Spirit, one nature in three personalities, intellectual, perfect, self-existent, numerically separate, but not separate in godhead (Orations 33 [A.D 374]).


Epiphanius

[The Antiochenes] confess the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit to be consubstantial, three hypostases, one essence, one divinity. That is the true faith which has been handed down by the fathers… (Against the Heresies of the Panarians 73 [A.D. 374-377]).


Ambrose of Milan

The substance of the Trinity is, so to say, a common Essence in that which is distinct, an incomprehensible, ineffable Substance. We hold the distinction, not the confusion of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; a distinction without separation; a distinction without plurality; and thus we believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit as each existing from and to eternity in this divine and wonderful Mystery: not in two Fathers, nor in two Sons, nor in two Spirits (To Gratian, On the Christian Faith 4:8 [A.D. 381]).

---
"I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me." - Matthew 25: 40

I think that you can take this on from any angle! I'll try to keep from a repeat of my "truth in the NWT" posts from a few weeks ago, but here are a few (I'm only giving some that haven't been altered beyond proving the point in the NWT) :

Ask them why the King James Version that was released by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society says, "The Word was God" in John 1:1? Or why there is a picture of "Rah" the Sun god on the outside of the Watchtower's Bethel Headquarters in Brooklyn, New York? I guess it makes no difference, they have many gods.

On page 1662 of the NWT, under "Trinity" (that's right, the back of their book is devoted to debunking us), it says, "God to be exalted above all". The reference for this is Philippians 2:10,11 which states that every knee will bend to Christ. I'm just a little confused by that. Here's some fun, Romans 14:11 says in all other versions that every knee will bend to Christ ("the Lord"), yet the NWT attributes this verse to "Jehovah". Apparently they realize that He is one in the same!

Take a look :

Philippians 2:10-11 (NWT) 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

and

Romans 14:11 (NWT) for it is written: “‘As I live,’ says Jehovah, ‘to me every knee will bend down, and every tongue will make open acknowledgment to God.’”

I just have to point this out for anyone with a New World Translation. The references on page 1657 of the NWT to infer that "Sabbath day is not binding of Christians” refers to circumcision and that the Gentiles and the Jews should remain one. It has nothing to do with the Sabbath! That is a Commandment!

How could they possibly claim to be a translation from the original scrolls? I doubt they went back even as far as the Latin Vulgate, but they could not have gone back farther. Many scrolls have not been located and 1 Maccabees 1:56 tells us that any scroll that was found at that time from the Torah were torn up or burned.

I was told that I "lack common sense" for believing that Christ is God when He prays to God as "Father" in Matthew. Three times in Matthew chapter 6 before verse 9 where the "Our Father" begins, Christ referred to The Father as "YOUR Father". Christ was our perfect example, He is the only way that we could possibly be "imitators of God" (Ephesians 5:1). I know that He did call Him "My Father", but He did not here. He started (NWT) the prayer by saying, "when you pray, pray this way, "Our Father"... phew! It feels good to let that out! Let me point out, every one of the Jehovah's Witnesses that I have been dealing with have just been a pleasure to be around, except one! Here's how she works... she's really, really nice. Then, she throws question after question at you, you answer the way that you feel you should, she insults you, you get all flustered and lose your train of thought, then she says, "why do you look into the verses to prove to yourself that Christ is God, are you unsure"... I can't speak for all of them, but she was trained to make you feel like you need her for answers.

This was pretty funny, then I will move on. I wouldn't pick on this if it was any other Witness that I have dealt with, but I was speaking with the same lady and I said, "what about all of the 'make way for Jehovah, the one crying in the wilderness' verses, or the 'Jehovah walking in your midst' verses"? I was told, "He is in our midst, but He doesn't have feet!". Ironically, just after this I turned to Genesis 18:4. Some versions say, "Lord", some "lord", but the NWT says "Jehovah" and it just so happens to say (Abraham speaking to Jehovah) "Let a little water be taken, please and YOU must have YOUR feet washed. In verse 5, Jehovah replied, "All right. You may do just as you have spoken." I didn't find that while she was here, I had to tell someone!

Whose Kingdom? :

Matthew 19:24 and Mark 1:15 = God's Kingdom
Hebrews 1:7-8 and Psalms 45:6 = Christ's Kingdom and in 13 versions Christ is called God here, yet NWT renders this (Hebrews 1:8) as "God is your throne" rather than "Your throne, O God".
Daniel 7:13-14 = Christ has everlasting rule

The First and The Last :
Isaiah 48:12-13 and Isaiah 44:6 = God the Father is the "first and the last"

Now, since Christ was called "Almighty" in this next verse, the translators of the NWT had to change "Lord" to "Jehovah", implying that Jehovah was the One to be pierced and that He will appear in the End with Christ (although Deuteronomy 32:39 says, "I-I am He, and there are no gods together with me" and Deuteronomy 33:20 tells us that no man will see the Father and live) :

Revelation 1:8 in NWT says that Jehovah is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last (although this is the only version to attribute this verse to the Father rather than Christ)

but it kind of works out beautifully, because Revelation 22:13 calls Christ the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end... verse 16 tells us this with, "I, Jesus..."

Here is the one that my Mom just gave me...

Who Judges?

Well, Ezekiel 7:3 tells us that the Father judges all
John 5:22 tells us that the Son judges all... not the Father
Did this mean while the Son was on Earth? No! John 3:17 says that the Son did not come here to judge.

Now, that just reminded me of John 10:34 where Christ was talking about when He said, "ye are gods" in the Old Testament. It cross-references (even in NWT) Psalms 82:6 which is in quotes as Christ speaking. If you continue down to verse 8, it says, "Do rise up, O God, do judge the earth." That stood out to me before because Christ was being called "God" with a capital "G" in the NWT, but it is also saying that Christ will judge.

The judgement seat :

Romans 14:10 = The Father's judgment seat
2 Corinthians 5:10 = Christ's judgment seat

Is Christ valueless?
Psalms 66: 5 For all the gods of the peoples are valueless gods;
But as for Jehovah, he has made the very heavens.


All Things Created (There are many other verses to support this, I'm just trying to cover as much as I can before I go to sleep) :

All things were created through Christ in John 1:3.
Isaiah 45:12, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 45:8-9, Mark 3:19, and Genesis 2:4 all tell us that the Father created all.
Isaiah 48:13 tells us that the Father laid the foundations of the earth and the Heavens are the work of His hands.
Hebrews 1:10 and Colossians 1:16 tells us that all things were created by and for Christ... and that Christ laid the foundations of the earth and the Heavens are the work of His hands.
Hebrews 2:10 tells us that all things were created through the Father.




I think that my "Christ, the Image of the Invisible God" post could work, too.

When Christ was told in John 20:28 "My Lord and my God"... He did not dispute this. In fact, He told Thomas, "because you have seen, you have believed. Blessed is he who does not see and yet believes" (although I believe theirs says "happy" like their "happy are those who mourn"?). Now, when Herod was worshipped, he allowed it and was punished with worms. Paul and Barnabas (Acts 14:14-15) were worshipped and they tore open their shirts and said look, I'm a man just like you... don't worship me! When John bowed down to an angel, he was corrected in Revelation 19:10. The angel told him, “Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus. Worship God; for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.” The Greek word "proskuneo" is used in reference to the Father and the Son, yet any time that this word appears in reference to the Son in the NWT, it is rendered "obeisance" rather than "worship". I guess that's what God was talking about with the alterations in the "latter days"!

WHAT’S IN A NAME?

Christ bears God’s name :
Acts 3:15 whereas YOU killed the Chief Agent of life. But God raised him up from the dead, of which fact we are witnesses. 16 Consequently his name, by [our] faith in his name, has made this man strong whom YOU behold and know, and the faith that is through him has given the man this complete soundness in the sight of all of YOU.
John 17:11 “Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are.

But, what is the name? :

Luke 19:38 saying: “Blessed is the One coming as the King in Jehovah’s name! Peace in heaven, and glory in the highest places!”
Philippians 2:9 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name,
Sidenote… He was expected to be exalted :
Psalms 46:10 “Give in, YOU people, and know that I am God.
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth.”
Matthew 1:23 “Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Im•man´u•el,” which means, when translated, “With Us Is God.”
Mark 11:9 And those going You whose dignity is recounted above the heavens! in front and those coming behind kept crying out: “Save, we pray! Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!
Psalms 8:1 O Jehovah our Lord, how majestic your name is in all the earth,
Psalms 118:26 Blessed be the One coming in the name of Jehovah; We have blessed YOU people out of the house of Jehovah.
Matthew 23:39 For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!’”
Psalms 83:16 Fill their faces with dishonor,
That people may search for your name, O Jehovah.
Daniel 9:19 O Jehovah, do hear. O Jehovah, do forgive. O Jehovah, do pay attention and act. Do not delay, for your own sake, O my God, for your own name has been called upon your city and upon your people.”

The Father will send the Holy Spirit in Christ’s name :

John 14:26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU.

~~But, why would God send His own Spirit in Christ’s name? (Just one example):

Ephesians 4: Also, do not be grieving God’s holy spirit, with which YOU have been sealed for a day of releasing by ransom.

I am just wondering, why are all of the “YOU’s” capital?

1 John 5:13 I write YOU these things that YOU may know that YOU have life everlasting, YOU who put YOUR faith in the name of the Son of God.
John 5:42 but I well know that YOU do not have the love of God in YOU. 43 I have come in the name of my Father, but YOU do not receive me; if someone else arrived in his own name, YOU would receive that one.

THE GLORY OF GOD

God does NOT share His glory :

Isaiah 42:8 “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.

Yet, Christ received His glory :
2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when words such as these were borne to him by the magnificent glory: “This is my son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved.”
2 Peter 3:18 No, but go on growing in the undeserved kindness and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him [be] the glory both now and to the day of eternity.
John 2:11 Jesus performed this in Ca´na of Gal´i•lee as [the] beginning of his signs, and he made his glory manifest; and his disciples put their faith in him.
John 17:5 So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.
Philippians 2:11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
John 17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, 2 according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life.
John 17:10 and all my things are yours and yours are mine, and I have been glorified among them.
John 17:22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

OUR SAVIOR

Jehovah is the ONLY savior :
Isaiah 43:11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”
Jehovah is the only savior and there is no other God :
Isaiah 45:21 Make YOUR report and YOUR presentation. Yes, let them consult together in unity. Who has caused this to be heard from a long time ago? [Who] has reported it from that very time? Is it not I, Jehovah, besides whom there is no other God; a righteous God and a Savior, there being none excepting me?
Luke 1:46 And Mary said: “My soul magnifies Jehovah, 47 and my spirit cannot keep from being overjoyed at God my Savior;
Christ is the savior :
Luke 2:11 because there was born to YOU today a Savior, who is Christ [the] Lord, in David’s city.
Philippians 3:20 As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens, from which place also we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
NWT is the only version to place “of [the]” in this verse. NIV says, “while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,”:
Titus 2:13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus,
Titus 3:6 This [spirit] he poured out richly upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Again, NWT is drastically different from all other versions in this verse. NIV says, “Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:” :
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith, held in equal privilege with ours, by the righteousness of our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 2:20 Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, the final conditions have become worse for them than the first.
2 Peter 3:18 No, but go on growing in the undeserved kindness and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him [be] the glory both now and to the day of eternity.
~~Remember, God does not share His glory.
2 Peter 3:2 that YOU should remember the sayings previously spoken by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through YOUR apostles.




SOME MISC. IMPORTANT VERSES

1 Corinthians 8: 4 Now concerning the eating of foods offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

Zecharia 2: 7 “Hey there, Zion! Make your escape, you who are dwelling with the daughter of Babylon. 8 For this is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘Following after [the] glory he has sent me to the nations that were despoiling YOU people; for he that is touching YOU is touching my eyeball (KJV says, “toucheth the apple of his eye”) 9 For here I am waving my hand against them, and they will have to become spoil to their slaves.’ And YOU people will certainly know that Jehovah of armies himself has sent me. 10 “Cry out loudly and rejoice, O daughter of Zion; for here I am coming, and I will reside in the midst of you,” is the utterance of Jehovah. 11 “And many nations will certainly become joined to Jehovah in that day, and they will actually become my people; and I will reside in the midst of you.” And you will have to know that Jehovah of armies himself has sent me to you. 12 And Jehovah will certainly take possession of Judah as his portion upon the holy ground, and he must yet choose Jerusalem. 13 Keep silence, all flesh, before Jehovah, for he has aroused himself from his holy dwelling.




Proverbs 8: 12 “I, wisdom, I have resided with shrewdness and I find even the knowledge of thinking abilities. 13 The fear of Jehovah means the hating of bad. Self-exaltation and pride and the bad way and the perverse mouth I have hated. 14 I have counsel and practical wisdom. I—understanding; I have mightiness.

With

Colossians 2: 1 For I want YOU to realize how great a struggle I am having in behalf of YOU and of those at La•o•di•ce´a and of all those who have not seen my face in the flesh, 2 that their hearts may be comforted, that they may be harmoniously joined together in love and with a view to all the riches of the full assurance of [their] understanding, with a view to an accurate knowledge of the sacred secret of God, namely, Christ. 3 Carefully concealed in him are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge.

And

1 Corinthians 1: 24 however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.



Why does the NWT change “Sovereign” to “Owner” in reference to Christ in Jude 1:4? “Jehovah” is referred to as “Lord” in (NWT) (in some of these verses, it was “Lord God” that was replaced with “Sovereign Lord Jehovah”… so “God” was what was changed) :
Isaiah 30:15; Isaiah 50:4,5,7,9; Ezekiel 28:6,10,11,12,22,24, and 25; Ezekiel 29:3,8,13,16,19,20; Ezekiel 30:2,6,10,13, and 22; Ezekiel 31:10,15,18; Ezekiel 32:3,8,11,14,16,31, and 32; Ezekiel 3:27; Ezekiel 18:23 and 30; Isaiah 10:16; Isaiah 3:1 (“true Lord Jehovah”) ; Psalms 71:16; Psalms 8:1; Psalms 8:9; Psalms 73:28; Psalms 68:20; Psalms 69:6; Isaiah 61:11; Isaiah 48:16; and Psalms 147:5.

YET… JUDE 1:4 TELLS US :
Jude 1:4 My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.


The “WHAT DOES THE BIBLE really TEACH”, AKA, "The Christian Basher Handbook", is geared toward condemning Catholics, going as far as lying and name-calling. I only blame the writers. Just pages away from the page where it condemns us for “graven images”, there is a picture of Christ on a “torture stake” (on page 52). Page 30 contains a picture of Christ, page 38 contains a picture of John the Baptist and Christ, 44 and 45 have pictures of Christ, page 62 has a picture of Adam… I’ll stop there. Obviously the writers are aware that the verses restricting graven images all pertain to worshipping the image and considering it God. Anybody who worships anyone except God is in grave sin and I have yet to meet one who does this. It is highly presumptuous for anyone to believe that what we do is worship the image, or anyone except God. The whole book is loaded with fabrications and out of context verses, but there is a page where they point out that our bodies die because Adam bit the apple. This makes sense to them because they believe that our soul is our whole being (the need to breathe, eat, nourishment). My question, though, is do our bodies not die now that Christ has saved us?

The seven missing books are upsetting, but I would never condemn a Protestant Bible. I have and read the KJV and the NIV. I do have to point out that I have been studying many Bibles and the NIV is more closely related to the NWT than any other version. They even have the same missing verses. What I don't understand is the claim that only Jehovah's Witnesses are taught, and that is that Catholics added the books. Just Baruch alone! He was Jeremiah’s secretary and was spoken of in Jeremiah 36:4; Nehemiah 11:5; Nehemiah 10:6; Nehemiah 3:20; Jeremiah 43:3; Jeremiah 36:5; Jeremiah 36:8; Jeremiah 32:12; Jeremiah 36:18; Jeremiah 36:19; Jeremiah 32:13; Jeremiah 36:17; Jeremiah 36:17; Jeremiah 36:14; Jeremiah 45:1; Jeremiah 36:32; Jeremiah 36:15; Jeremiah 36:10; Jeremiah 36:26; Jeremiah 45:2; Jeremiah 43:6; Jeremiah 32:16; Jeremiah 36:27; Jeremiah 36:13; Jeremiah 36:16; Jeremiah 45:4; and Jeremiah 36:11.

They also removed Daniel chapters 13 (64 verses) & 14 (42 verses). They removed (that I have found so far) : Daniel 3:31-100; Matthew 17:21; Matthew 18:11; Matthew 21:41; Matthew 23:14; Mark 9:44; Mark 7:16; Mark 9:46; Mark 15:28; Mark 11:26; Luke 17:36; Luke 23:17; Acts 8:37; Acts 24:7; Acts 28:29; and Romans 16:24.

“Lord” (rather than "LORD") was changed to “Jehovah” (I’ve seen many others, unfortunately I just recently started writing them down) in :

1 Corinthians 1:31; Revelation 1:8; Luke 3:6; Luke 3:4; Matthew 3:3; John 1:23; Isaiah 6:1; Psalms 44:23; Psalms 38:9,22; Psalms 39:7; Psalms 38:15; Psalms 54:4; Romans 10:13; Psalms 55:9; Psalms 57:9; Psalms 68:19; Psalms 73:20; Psalms 77:2; Psalms 77:7; Psalms 73:28; Psalms 79:12; Psalms 86:4,5,8,9,12,and 15; Acts 2:20 and 21; Psalms 90:17; Matthew 22:37; 2 Corinthians 6:18; 2 Corinthians 6:18; 1 Chronicles 22:12; and Matthew 22:44.

So, I do not fault a Jehovah's Witness for his/her beliefs... but my stomach turns whenever I think of the non-scholarly writers of the NWT. Here's something that is hard to understand... there are 3,000 people living in New York writing the Watchtower's and all of their other literature. I am sure that there are some cruel and evil people teaching these people what to believe, but they are brainwashed. They are given little rooms and repeated classes on what to believe, so many of the people that are writing their literature truly do have good intentions and do believe what they write. That's sad. I don't know whether it's true, but I have read that they are very restricted... they pretty much don't leave the building or have access to the truth.



I might come back to this tomorrow night! It's fun!

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Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
~~Matthew 22:37

Didn't Jesus constantly defer to the Father as greater than Himself?

Well, is the mind greater than the body? Didn't Christ say, "Love the Lord thy God" was the greatest commandment? The Jehovah's Witness sites point out that "Lord" is the Son... "LORD" is the Father. Hhhmmmm!

Didn't Moses tell Israel there is only 1 God?

Absolutely. We are not meant to be polytheistic. Christ says that "I and the Father are one". They would probably have a hard time understanding this with their version of the Bible. Mark 12:29 where it says that, "The Lord thy God is one Lord"... theirs says "Jehovah YOUR God is one Jehovah". This tells you nothing. It works like, "Bob the Builder is one Bob"... it does not tell you how many builders there are, just that his name is Bob!

Did any Christian even believe in a Trinity prior to the 5th century? Is there any evidence the Apostles taught a Trinity?

Bibles were not available, poor government kept people from public worship... and yet prayers like the "Nicene Creed" still came about from the early centuries. Evidence from the apostles? Yes, even in the NWT. I believe that Constantine, who the Jehovah's Witness literature, "Should you believe in the Trinity... is Christ the Almighty God" speaks of as having a "so called conversion", actually helped to write the Nicene Creed as the "Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed".

No Christian (including Catholic priests and mainline Protestant Ministers) believes there are "three gods in one".

No, there are only "so-called gods". A god is what people create generally by worshipping someone other than God. There is one God in three persons.

Christians believe there are 3 persons, all having the same substance. These 3 persons are infinitely coexistent, coeternal, and coequal. They each have their own "natures". For evidence of this we look to the holy Bible and scripture.

Beautifully put.

Remember, when Jesus was being baptized by John the Baptist, the Father's voice was heard to say; "this is my Son". Also present was the Holy Spirit. See Matthew 3:16-17.

Something else that I find interesting is that in many verses, especially throughout Acts, we are told to be baptized simply in the name of Jesus. However, in Matthew 28:19, Jesus tells us to be baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Interestingly enough, Christ has The Father's name and apparently the Holy Spirit shares the name as well.


The plurality of God is is also demonstrated in Genesis 1:26 where Jehovah says; "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." It's obvious God is not talking to angels here. Since we know from Isaiah 43:10-11 that there is not any God other than Jehovah (aka: Yahweh, I Am, Yeshua/Jesus), then Jehovah is talking to the Son and the Holy Spirit --who are equal in substance to Jehovah. This plurality is repeated in Scripture often enough. For instance at the Tower of Babel Jehovah says in Genesis 11:7, "let us go down, and there confound their language."

More specifically, Deuteronomy 32:39 in the NWT says, "I-I am He, and there are no gods (note the little "g") together with me". "Our image" = mind, body, spirit. As Witnesses claim, Christ needed to be an "exact equal" to Adam. 1 Corinthians 15:47,48 describe Adam (the first man) as being "of dust", but Christ (the second man) is "the heavenly one". The tower of Babel... isn't that where the NWT was created?


Hebrews 1 8-9:
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness F3 is the sceptre of thy kingdom.[/i]

Confounding the language again! NWT says for Hebrews 1:8, "God is your throne forever..."


And what did Jesus say of this Triune God? In Matthew 28:19 we know that Jesus said; "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

I knew that was a good one!

I and my Father are one John 10:30.

Haha! Great minds think alike! The Comforter will come in Christ's name, ironically the same name as the Father.

Something that is very germane to this discussion is that Jesus performed miracles in His own name. And Jesus forgave sins in His own name.

That is the most important to me, as well. He was, "making Himself equal to God". The problem is that nowhere in the NWT was Jesus ever worshipped. The same Greek word used for "worship" was rendered correctly to the Father, yet they "translate" it as "obeisance" in reference to Christ. The NWT downplays most roles of Jesus. Have you ever seen Him in their books on the torture stake (even though the sign was hung above His head in Matt 27:37, and there was more than one nail used for His hands John 20:25)? Where is His crown of thorns? He looks like He merely stubbed His toe. When they pierced Him, water came out with the blood. Chances are good that the water was in His heart because He fell 3 times with the heavy Cross on His back. Still, He was scourged, whipped, spit at, blasphemed, and mocked. Yet, again, the "WHAT DOES THE BIBLE really TEACH" made it look like He hit His funny bone. It's a disgrace to Christ and anyone who has Faith in Him. No offense to anyone except the authors and the artist.

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Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
~~Matthew 22:37

That was a great post, I'm printing it out!

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Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
~~Matthew 22:37

Here's a good one! I didn't know whether to post here, or under your Melchizedek post. I always check the NWT when I see a "Lord" in the Old Testament of my Bible. Yesterday, I found that Psalms 110:4-5 in the New World Translation reads :

4 Jehovah has sworn (and he will feel no regret):
“You are a priest to time indefinite
According to the manner of Mel·chiz´e·dek!”
5 Jehovah himself at your right hand
Will certainly break kings to pieces on the day of his anger.

Jehovah is at whose right hand?

But, I kept going back to it with the correct translation. Here is how Psalms 110:4-6 reads in the KJV :

The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

I keep reading now that "Lord" really is supposed to be The Son, and "LORD" is The Father. I was trying to figure out if the Holy Spirit was also a "priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek", or if He was called "Lord" and is "seated at the right hand" of Christ... and the "his wrath" thing stood out, as well. Then I thought about the references that you had posted below, and went back to Hebrews chapter 7. Here's where it gets really cool!

Hebrews 7:
21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec)
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Well, I don't know why Melchizedek is spelled different. Translating from different languages? Anyway, verse 21 says that the "Lord" swore and will not repent, just as the "LORD" did in Psalms 110:5... and judging by the fact that verse 22 puts a distinction between Christ and verse 21's "Lord"... the "Lord" is not only the Holy Spirit, but He is called "LORD" in Psalms!!!! I know that nobody here needs verification for the Trinity, but I had to share that!

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Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
~~Matthew 22:37

I will lay off of this thread after this, I am just hoping that a Jehovah's Witness notices this and maybe opens their darn eyes...

New World Translation :

Luke 1 :
59 And on the eighth day they came to circumcise the young child, and they were going to call it by the name of its father, Zech·a·ri´ah. 60 But its mother answered and said: “No, indeed! but he shall be called John.” 61 At this they said to her: “There is no one among your relatives that is called by this name.” 62 Then they went asking its father by signs what he wanted it to be called. 63 And he asked for a tablet and wrote: “John is its name.” At this they all marveled. 64 Instantly his mouth was opened and his tongue loosed and he began to speak, blessing God. 65 And fear fell upon all those living in their neighborhood; and in the whole mountainous country of Ju·de´a all these things began to be talked around, 66 and all that heard made note of it in their hearts, saying: “What really will this young child be?” For the hand of Jehovah was indeed with it.
67 And Zech·a·ri´ah its father was filled with holy spirit, and he prophesied, saying:

Seven times they called John the Baptist "it". It gets much, much worse!...

Luke 2 :
33 And its father and mother continued wondering at the things being spoken about it. 34 Also, Sim´e·on blessed them, but said to Mary its mother: “Look! This one is laid for the fall and the rising again of many in Israel and for a sign to be talked against

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Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
~~Matthew 22:37

i posted some of them on my youtube account.

http://www.youtube.com/user/canguy22

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http://www.youtube.com/user/canguy22

merry is happenis with strong drink
trinity is three blessed events