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Ray(R)

Ontario, Canada,
03.16.2008
 

easter vs passover (general)

Just wondering about thoughts concerning Easter as opposed to Passover. Which do you celebrate and does it really make a difference? I have thoughts but was wondering what others felt before I jumped in.

Ray

bibleprobe1(R)

03.16.2008
(edited by bibleprobe1, 03.16.2008)

@ Ray

easter vs passover

Easter is the holiest day of the year for me. Except for maybe Good Friday. The Lord God Himself conquered death on Easter Sunday. But more than that. He set us free. Easter is THE day of Triumph...

Passover was just an historic event for a relatively small tribe of people. It was awesome and miraculous, but it was also a "sign" of the real event that was to come. That was that those who repent and trust in the Jewish Messiah, the Christ -- will have their sins, which deserve eternal death --- "passed over". Christ paid for these sins on Good Friday, at about 3 P.M. that day.

Satan's purpose has always been to obscure, and falsify the simplicity of the cross in its application to our sin problem.

The Son of the Eternal Father's substitutional death on the cross stands at the heart of all other salvation truths revealed in the Bible. Jesus willingly took our place in suffering the penalty for sin. The demands of the Law against the transgressor were fully satisfied by His voluntary acceptance of our punishment that holy day in Jerusalem, when hanging on the cross He said; "it is finished".

It was the Savior's incarnate entrance into the human family which laid the foundation for the entire redemptive process.

Jesus Raises a great Multitude from Hell (Hades) on Easter Sunday

The word "Hades" "Sheol" refers to the realm of the dead, a temporary place where they await the resurrection. In the New Testament, the word "spirits" is used to describe angels or demons, not human beings. Souls describes human souls...

Matthew 27:52-53

"and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

When Christians recite the Apostles' Creed they affirm their belief that Jesus descended into hell (Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek ). Early church fathers, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen, among others, regarded the descent literally....

From the Apostles Creed:

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead.

Reports of Saints who rose from the dead with Jesus on Easter

-------

The Ante-Nicene Library is a collection of manuscripts written by important Christians from the time of Jesus Christ to the Council of Nicea (325 AD). These manuscripts were not included in the Christian Bible, so they are non-canonical.

Within this library are numerous writings about how Jesus descended into Hades while His body lay in the tomb, and that numerous saints (one report 12,000) rose from the dead with Jesus on Easter Sunday. These reportedly remained on earth for the 40 days Jesus remained after having risen and ascended into Heaven with Jesus. There are many reports of these risen saints having been seen in Jerusalem after Easter Sunday.

The Gospel of Nicodemus, Vol 8, Chapter I:

Then Rabbi Addas and Rabbi Finees, and Rabbi Egias, the three men who had come from Galilee, testifying that they had seen Jesus taken up into heaven, rose up in the midst of the multitude of the chiefs of the Jews, and said before the priests and the Levites, who had been called together to the council of the Lord: "When we were coming from Galilee we met at the Jordan a very great multitude of men, fathers who had been some time dead"...And they went, and walked around all the region of the Jordan and of the mountains, and they were coming back without finding them. And, behold, suddenly there appeared coming down from Mount Amalech a very great number, as it were, twelve thousand men, who had risen with the Lord. And though they recognized very many there, they were not able to say anything to them for fear and the angelic vision; and they stood at a distance gazing and hearing them, how they walked along singing praises, and saying; "The Lord has risen again from the dead, as He has said; let us all exult and be glad, since He reins for ever. Then those who had been sent were astonished and fell to the ground for fear, and received the answer from them, that they should see Karinus and Leucius in their own houses. And they rose up and went to their houses, and found them spending their time in prayer.

Concerning the King of Edessa, Vol 8, Page 653:

"He humbled and emptied and abased Himself, and was crucified, and descended to Hades and broke through the enclosure which had never been broken through before, and raised up the dead, and descended alone, and ascended with a great multitude to His Father".

The Jewish Messiah also had to suffer and lay down His life for our sins. This is clearly shown in Isaiah 53. He did this for both Jews and Gentiles.

There were over 360 prophecies foretold about the coming Jewish Messiah - hundreds of years before Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Jesus fulfilled all 365 of these prophecies. Of these 360+ prophecies, there are 109 that only Jesus (Yeshua) could have fulfilled. See complete list of 365 Messianic Prophecies here

His name in Greek is Jesus, and His Hebrew name is Yehoshua. In Aramaic it's: "Yeshua". In the "Suffering Servant" passage of Isaiah 53:5 (written: 712 B.C.) where we read:

"He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed"

Ray(R)

Ontario, Canada,
03.17.2008

@ bibleprobe1

easter vs passover

My understanding is that Easter is basically a holiday based on mythology. Around 300 AD it was decided to celebrate the resurrection on a pagan holiday to help converts understand Christianity better. Until then there was no Christian Easter celebration, only Passover. Church decrees were issued ordering Christian believers to stop celebrating Passover and celebrate Easter to remove themselves from their Jewish roots. Jesus was crucified and was resurrected during the Passover week celebrations, not Easter. Would it not then make more sense to celebrate Passover and not Easter?

Ray

bibleprobe1(R)

03.17.2008
(edited by bibleprobe1, 03.18.2008)

@ Ray

Why Judaize Ray? Easter is the Christian Passover

Why Judaize Ray? The Passover is a celebration of something that happened to the Jews. As far as I know, the Jews reject my Savior as their Messiah. It is true that the Lord, a Jew Himself, was committed to keeping the Passover. But to me that is much like an American desiring to celebrate the 4th of July -- which has little meaning to say a German or Indonesian. Matthew 3:15 tells us He came to fulfill all righteousness, which is the law of God. One element of the law of God "for a Jew" was keeping the Passover. Luke 22:15 tells us Jesus had an intense desire to keep the Passover with His disciples. For the origin of this feast, see Exodus 12:1-14. It was really the Jewish emancipation day, the greatest of their feasts, and the paschal lamb was a "type" of the slain Christ. But Jews to this day don't know that. Paul tells us that the Jews have been supernaturally "blinded".

Every male Jew, who was of age and lived within 15 miles of Jerusalem, was bound to celebrate Passover every year in Jerusalem. This annual feast commemorated the deliverance of the people of Israel from their slavery in Egypt (see Exodus 12). On that night the angel of death slew the first-born of the Egyptians; but he "passed over" the homes of the Israelites, because the lintel of their doors was smeared with the blood of an unblemished lamb sacrificed for the occasion. It was at Passover time that Jesus came to Jerusalem knowing he would be betrayed and put to death as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). Jesus fulfilled the Passover. His death and resurrection, which occured at Passover time, redeems us from enslavement to sin, death, Satan, and the world. His blood, like the blood of the first Passover lamb, protects God's people from the angel of death and breaks the oppressive rule of Satan. Easter is the Christian Passover (1 Cor. 5:7-8).

"Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." 1 Corinthians 5:7-8

The death of Jesus Christ is the focal point of all redemptive history. It is no accident! It is the apex of the plan of God. From the slain animals whose skins were used to cloth Adam and Eve to the slain Lamb of Revelation who is worshiped in glory and majesty, the cross is everything.

If you want to celebrate Passover, why stop there? Why not celebrate all the Jewish holidays? You can even make a grass hut and live in it for a week. But you'll need to live in that hut thinking like an unenlightened Jew. And wailing, "Why? Oh Why? God haven't you sent the promised Messiah yet?"

Me! I'll celebrate an event that had a profound effect on myself. That's the Lord Jesus taking my sins on Himself on Friday, and His glorious resurrection and triumph over the grave on Sunday.

If you get that DVD I recommended called "The Star of Bethlehem" you will see that that year (probably April 3, 33 AD) that Christ had to have been crucified around 3 PM on Friday, because Passover was on the Sabbath that year (sundown Friday till Sundown Saturday by Jerusalem reckoning). He had to die before Sabbath/Passover. So He rose from the dead on Easter Sunday.

The early church Fathers had the right idea if you ask me. Every holiday including Passover had to have had a Rabbi or Church Father decide when the first one would be.

We had not long ago passed through the Christmas holidays. And we had to once again endure so many people tell us that December 25 was chosen because it was a pagan holiday. Well guess what? If you study that DVD (The Star of Bethlehem) you'll see that 25 December was the exact best day to expect the Messiah according to the signs in the heavens.

Of note: It is thought that the Galileans and Pharisees reckoned the Passover day from sunrise to sunrise, whereas the Judeans and Sadducees, who made up the ruling body in Jerusalem, reckoned it from sunset to sunset.

Lacy(R)

WA,
03.17.2008

@ bibleprobe1

Same argument as Christmas...

I think this is very similar to the argument regarding Christmas. Christ was not born on Christmas day... it was a holiday pagans had and kind of meshed together. (Bells, trees, and many other symbols used at Christmas were used in Pagan celebrations).

I guess at sometime the dates changed due to whatever at the time, but the facts remain the same. Jesus was born... and he did die and rise again... the world have contorted the facts a bit, but we as believers know the truth. And those may be the dates the world gives us, but we get what we can take! They may try to hide the meaning by adding bunnies and eggs (also Pagan), but we can shout out about our Lord just as loudly. That's what we are given, and rather than ignore it, let's just use that day for God's glory, honor and praise!

I'm turning the whole egg thing around at our Christian Childacare... our theme is "We were once lost, but now we're found". So we're turning the worlds idea of Easter, into our own celebration and truth behind the story of Easter. The kids can still have fun and do their egg hunt and such, but they ultimately know the truth of what happened that very important day.

That's my whole stance on it anyways, not all agree. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions. I know someone that doesn't celebrate Christmas because of the Pagan aspect of it. But because he chooses to do that, he is silencing the truth all together. He does not observe the birth of Jesus any day... just because that isn't that actual day. But which is worse? To not celebrate any day... or to celebrate the facts on a day they it may not have happened? As mentioned... we should take what the world gives us and glorify God!

---
"Stand for something or you'll fall for anything."

Ray(R)

Ontario, Canada,
03.18.2008

@ Lacy

symbols

My original post was meant more as a question and not as an attempt to get anyone to change. My other follow up question would then be what 'worldly' customs do you practice at Easter (ie, eggs, bunnies, etc)? Do their worldly meaning take anything away from Easter?

Ray

Lacy(R)

WA,
03.18.2008

@ Ray

symbols

I think it's more about how it's presented.

Again, when teaching the children we take what the world has given us and twist it to glorify God. With the Easter eggs my theme is "We were once lost, but now we're found." And we always tell the story about the true meaning of why Eastser is celebrated. As the kids grow older they will understand more... right now they are so young and to take such a big part of childhood away from them I don't think is right. I know as a child I looked forward to Easter and Christmas.

My parents -never- told me santa gave me presents or anything like that. And even today.... presents under the tree could be seen as pagan celebrations, or you can turn that back into a messege about Christ. I teach my children that we give gifts just as God gave us the ultimate gift... the birth of His only Son. And that when Jesus was born others gave him presents too.

I don't think the children would understand if they missed out on all those traditional activites. They would hear all their friends talk about all the candy and things they got and how much fun they had... while they sat back and had no fun.

I don't think it's a real big deal unless messeges are being too mixed and they think Easter is not about Jesus but about a bunny. And that Christmas is not about the birth of Christ, but getting presents from Santa. Otherwise, I think it's relatively harmless fun that can be twisted back in God's favor. :-)

---
"Stand for something or you'll fall for anything."

NAPHTALI

03.20.2008

@ Ray

easter vs passover

Shalom All;
Most Gentiles are not aware that Paul told the Corinthian Gentiles to Keep Passover: 1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
The Feast Days are NOT the Feast Days of the Jews or of Moses, they are the Feast Days of the Lord.
The initial requirements put on the Gentiles in the Book of Acts, were just that, initial. Paul clearly went on to teach the Saturday Shabbat, and Rosh Chodesh (New Moon) Festivals and told his readers not to let people discourage you from celebrating these feasts: KJV Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days:. Paul was beginning to teach all of Torah.
Indeed there is no New Covenant as one cannot be grafted into a cultivate3d olive tree NIV Romans 11:24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! (Which takes a very long time to cultivate) and simultaneously have a New Covenant; the ideas are oxymoronic and mutually exclusive.

In Scriptural terms the first use of the Greek word ekklesia is in the Septuagint and is rendered the Assembly of the Lord. Oddly if this had appeared in the NT the gentile translators would have rendered it the church of the Lord. Paul was grafting gentiles into an existing ekklesia --- the ekklesia of Israel. Hence the Bibles insistence on having ONE LAW. Feast Days not delineated in scripture are essentially man-made creations, very similar to the fact that denominations are departures from the ekklesia of Israel.
NAPHTALI

bibleprobe1(R)

03.20.2008

@ NAPHTALI

easter vs passover

Jesus/Yeshua desired strongly to keep the Passover. That's because like Paul, Jesus was an observant Jew.

Paul, about thirty years after the resurrection of Jesus, claimed to be observant of Jewish practice also. This was Paul's personal preference/tradition.... Acts 23:9, 24:14, 25:8, 28:17

Paul may have objected to Gentile Christians' adopting of Sabbath and other Jewish holy day observance (See Galatians 4:9-10). Basically Paul is telling us that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament "Law" and set Christians free from its "bondage".

9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

The Letter to the Colossians instructed its readers that Sabbath observance was not required (See Colossians 2:16-17). If one wants to do it let them make that decision to return to that "bondage".

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

NAPHTALI

03.21.2008

@ NAPHTALI

easter vs passover

Greetings all;
The clash between Easter and Passover derives from who was in control during the formative years of the ekklesia after the Jewish Apostles and membership had been dominated by Gentiles in the Second Century onward; especially in light of dispersion of the Jews by Hadrian (whether Messianic Jews or not).
As previously stated the term ekklesia was employed by the writers of the Greek Septuagint as early as 280 BC. where it is rendered today as the Assembly of God, or Assembly of Israel. Oddly, IF THAT EXACT SAME TERM HAD APPEARED IN RT writings, the translators would most certainly have rendered it Church of the Lord or Church of Israel The differences found in rendering the Greek Ekklesia from assembly [suggesting something Jewish as opposed to Church suggesting something gentile] can be seen in a copy of the Septuagint LXX at: Lev 8:3; Num 20:8; Deut 4:10; 9:10; 18:16; 23:2ff, 9; 31:12, 28, 30; Josh 9:2; Jda. 20:2; 21:5, 8; Judg 20:2; 21:5, 8; 1 Sam 17:47; 19:20; 1 Kgs 8:14, 22, 55, 65; 1 Chr 13:2, 4; 28:2, 8; 29:1, 10, 20; 2 Chr 1:3, 5; 6:3, 12f; 7:8; 10:3; 20:5, 14; 23:3; 28:14; 29:23, 28, 31f; 30:2, 4, 13, 17, 23ff; Ezra 2:64; 10:1, 8, 12, 14; Neh 5:7, 13; 7:66; 8:2, 17; 13:1; Esth 4:16; Jdt 6:16, 21; 7:29; 14:6; 1 Macc 2:56; 3:13; 4:59; 5:16; 14:19; Ps 21:23, 26; 25:5, 12; 34:18; 39:10; 67:27; 88:6; 106:32; 149:1; Prov 5:14; Eccl 1:1f, 12; 7:27; 12:8ff; Job 30:28; Sir 15:5; 21:17; 23:24; 24:2; 26:5; 31:11; 33:19; 38:33; 39:10; 44:15; 46:7; 50:13, 20; Pss. Sol. 10:6; Mic 2:5; Joel 2:16; Lam 1:10; Matt 16:18; 18:17; Acts 5:11; 7:38; 8:1, 3; 9:31; 11:22, 26; 12:1, 5; 13:1; 14:23, 27; 15:3f, 22, 41; 16:5; 18:22; 19:32, 39f; 20:17, 28; Rom 16:1, 4f, 16, 23; 1 Cor 1:2; 4:17; 6:4; 7:17; 10:32; 11:16, 18, 22; 12:28; 14:4f, 12, 19, 23, 28, 33ff; 15:9; 16:1, 19; 2 Cor 1:1; 8:1, 18f, 23f; 11:8, 28; 12:13; Gal 1:2, 13, 22; Eph 1:22; 3:10, 21; 5:23ff, 27, 29, 32; Phil 3:6; 4:15; Col 1:18, 24; 4:15f; 1 Thess 1:1; 2:14; 2 Thess 1:1, 4; 1 Tim 3:5, 15; 5:16; Phlm 1:2; Heb 2:12; 12:23; Jas 5:14; 3 John 1:6, 9f; Rev 1:4, 11, 20; 2:1, 7f, 11f, 17f, 23, 29; 3:1, 6f, 13f, 22; 22:16.

Many scholar concur that text referring to passages from the Tanakh were NOT quoted from a Hebrew text, but rather the Septuagint; Then it seems logical that RT writers use of the word ekklesia would carry the meaning it carried in the Septuagint.

As previously stated the stipulations placed on the Gentiles who were joining the ekklesia were only initial requirements to stop gross sinning:
NKJ Acts 15:20 "but that we write to them [gentiles] to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. These restrictions were only preliminary and were meant to be exceeded by the teaching of all the requirements of scripture. Paul was clearly teaching Gentiles to keep Passover: 1 Corinthians 5: 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.. Paul commands the Passover be kept, but since then virtually every gentile church has ignored his teaching, WHY? Paul NEVER saw himself as a Christian, indeed he saw himself as a Pharisee, not I was a Pharisee: NKJ Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, "Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!"

Paul taught about NEW MOON Festivals to peoples who worshipped FULL MOONS and thought that the New Moon was a sky monster being forced to regurgitate a full moon that he had eaten. Paul taught eating Kosher, and keeping the true day of Shabbat: NIV Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

When Paul said: NKJ 1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. He meant that all his behavior is prescribed and dictated by Torah, NOT, that as some erroneously teach, that all activity such even as prostitute, was permitted to Paul.

The cultivated Olive Tree was/is Pauls, Peters, etc form of Messianic Judaism adhered to by prophets and righteous people down through the ages, NOT A NEW CHURCH, NOT A NEW EKKLESIA with a different set of rules, NOT ANOTHER DENOMINATION OF THE EKKLESIA OF ISRAEL. The Most repeated commandment in all of scripture is to have one law for Hebrew and alien (gentiles who walk with them): him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you. That there should be one covenant law for Israel and the stranger is the single-most repeated commandment in all of scripture: KJVExodus 12:19, 12:43, 12:48-49, 20:10, 22:21, 23:9, 23:12, 29:33, 30:33; KJVLeviticus 16:29, 17:8, 17:10, 17:12-13, 17:15, 18:26, 19:10, 19:33-34, 20:2, 22:10, 22:12-13, 22:18, 22:25, 23:22, 24:16, 24:22, 25:6, 25:23, 25:35, 25:45, 25:47; KJVNumbers 1:51, 3:10, 3:38, 9:14, 15:14-16, 15:26, 15:29-30, 16:40, 18:4, 18:7, 19:10, 35:15; KJVDeuteronomy 1:16, 5:14, 10:18, 10:19, 14:21, 14:29, 16:11, 16:14, 17:15, 23:7, 23:20, 24:14, 24:17, 24:19-21, 25:5, 26:11-13, 27:19, 28:43, 29:11, 29:22, 31:12, 31:16; KJVJoshua 8:33, 8:35, 20:9.),
One cannot be grafted into an existing Olive Tree (ekklesia of Israel) with an entirely new covenant; the notions are fully incompatible.

Yeshua, Himself prophesized that in addition to eternal salvation in heaven there would also be rewards as well as RANK/STATUS in heaven:
NKJ Matthew 5:19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so (THE BULK OF THIS ACTION HAS BEEN DONE BY GENTILES IN THE PAST 1900 years), shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven so (THE BULK OF THIS ACTION HAS BEEN DONE BY Pious, Messianic Jews since the time of Adam}. This is why the Glory of the second Temple did not compare to Solomons; causing the ones who had seen Solomons to weep.


Chapters 40-48 of Ezekiel proves the covenant given the Jew by the Lord will be in effect during the millennial reign of Christ. When Jesus returns, no more denominations or out of ordinary Feast days. There will be one Law (covenant) and ONE EKKLESIA, the Ekklesia of the Lord, The Ekklesia of Israel.

NAPHTALI.

bibleprobe1(R)

03.21.2008
(edited by bibleprobe1, 03.22.2008)

@ NAPHTALI

easter vs passover

NAPHTALI:

I surely disagree with you on these points (Holidays, Shabbat & Kosher versus non-kosher). I cannot see how you can read Paul's plain statements that make us free --and try to interpret these as if he was keeping us in bondage to Laws that were meant for the Jews and only the Jews. Tell us why we aren't required to be circumcised Napthali. Or should Christians be circumcised and eat kosher? Should we have a Rabbi bless our food?

You wrote:
Paul was clearly teaching Gentiles to keep Passover: 1 Corinthians 5: 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

I don't read that this way at all. I read it as Paul telling us that we are free from "the old leaven" or the Old Testament Law that Jews are bound to. Why? Jesus made this possible because He satisfied all the requirements of the law in our place. Making us a "new lump". New Religion/People.

Paul did continue to practice as a Jew. That's his preference. I still like to have green beer and corned beef on St Patrick's Day. That's my cultural heritage/practise. That's my own preference.

How do you get "Paul taught eating Kosher, and keeping the true day of Shabbat" out of this?

NIV Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Again, I read that the exact opposite than you do. "Do not let anyone judge you what you eat or drink". That clearly means if you want to eat Kosher that's your preference. If not, that's also your preference. The same goes for any religious holiday or even Sabbat observance. If you want to --fine. If not --that's fine too. That's what Paul is clearly saying here.

Paul is teaching us in both statements that "Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and our Passover". In Him we are free. He set us free...

MANDATORY SHABBAT (SABBATH) OBSERVANCE WAS LAID ON THE JEWS ONLY....

The Word of God makes it quite clear that Sabbath observance was a special sign between God and Israel: "And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine'" (Exodus 19:35).

Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed (Exodus 31:1617). Note: It says; "the children of Israel).

In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the ten commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 1214, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: "And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you (Israelites) to keep the Sabbath day" (Deuteronomy 5:15). (Note: Moses tells us, the Sabbath was given to the nation of Israel).

Notice the word therefore AND "you" (Israel). God's intent for giving the Sabbath to Israel was not that they would remember creation, but that they would remember their Egyptian slavery and the Lord's deliverance. Note the requirements for Sabbath-keeping: A person placed under that Sabbath law could not leave his home on the Sabbath (Exodus 16:29), he could not build a fire (Exodus 35:3), and he could not cause anyone else to work (Deuteronomy 5:14). A person breaking the Sabbath law was to be put to death (Exodus 31:15; Numbers 15:3235).

WHY THE CHURCH FAVORED SUNDAY?
Jesus the Firstfruit sheaf offered, rose on a Sunday, and appeared before His disciples on the Sunday of His resurrection, He broke bread with disciples the same Sunday, He appeared to them the following Sunday. The Seal of The New Covenant, The Holy Spirit came on a Sunday.

That having been said, I was curious and drove by a local Catholic Church here in Massachusetts today. It was interesting to see that they have 2 Masses on Saturday, and 6 Masses on Sunday advertised and two each day Monday - Friday. That's as it should be. Paul said we should honor God "every day". Saturday and Sunday are just one of those "every days". A Christian is not compelled to attend Church on any day. If they do, that's fine. So long as they "honor God every day".

NAPHTALI

03.21.2008

@ NAPHTALI

easter vs passover

Consider: NKJ John 1:3 All things (INCLUDING THE ENTIRE CONTENTS, LAWS, REGULATIONS, etc of the TORAH/Tanakh) were made through Him (Yeshua), and without Him nothing was made that was made. then consider: NKJ John 14:15 " If you love Me, keep My commandments (Torah/Tanakh).

Paul, in describing the sting of the Law does not nullify it. Indeed if a person pays a speeding ticket, the paying of the ticket does not abolish the speeding laws. The Law exists to give sin its meaning, if there is no law there can be no sin; if sin ceased at the execution stake, why do people still need to confess their sins, which can only be known, because the Law exists to define the sin. If sin is abolished why do people need deliverance and exorcism, for Yeshua said: NKJ John 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. If Yeshua abolished the Law then He need not forgive sins (cause there would not be any) and there would be no need for Yeshua to free anyone. We know that this is NOT the way of things, we all need forgiveness of sin and setting free from the sin defined by having a law.

bibleprobe1(R)

03.22.2008
(edited by bibleprobe1, 03.22.2008)

@ NAPHTALI

easter vs passover

And what are Jesus' Commandments? In a nutshell, Love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself.

The Lord's Commandments never were, as Christians we are to follow the Old Testament "Laws", which were given to the Jews. And which were for the Jews.

A Christian has God's Laws written in their hearts. I'll bet it's written in their DNA. They instinctly know murdering innocents (noncombatants, babies, etc) is wrong; stealing is wrong, etc. And not honoring God and not loving your neighbors (and enemies) everyday is wrong...

Szuch77

03.24.2008

@ bibleprobe1

easter vs passover

bibleprobe1,

Naphtali is correct. The teachings of Jesus and the apostles all come from the Tanach (Old Testament) You read in various places that the apostles expounded on the Law of Moses, writings, and the prophets.

Furthermore, we are not under the law anymore because Jesus freed us so now all who believe on Him can enter the kingdom of G-d. The law could nopt provide eternal salvation, But by no means does that erase the law. We still need the instructions to live by. (Matt. 5)

bibleprobe1(R)

03.24.2008
(edited by bibleprobe1, 03.24.2008)

@ Szuch77

easter vs passover

Szuch77:

Let me ask you. Are you circumsized? Is this a requirement? Have you strayed further than a 1/4 mile from your home on any Saturday? Did you so much as wash your child or even your dog on a Saturday? Did you use electricity on a Saturday--which was cause for making someone else work on a Saturday? If you answer yes, then the penalty for your sin is death. That's the old Law. Animal sacrifice was part of the old Law also. Not only is the penalty for sin death. But you are still waiting for your Messiah, who has already come and taken those sins from you. If you will only believe.

It never erased the Law. The Old Testament Law was simply for Jews. Christians are under the New Covenant. I get quite upset of people in their ignorance trying to return Christians to the "bondage" of a Law that nobody could actually ever fully live up to. So, Jesus set us free from it. We are saved by our faith, trust and belief in Jesus, and by His grace only. No adherence to a Law that was given to or for the Jews (who also could never fully live up to it) will ever save a Christian.

MANDATORY SHABBAT (SABBATH) OBSERVANCE WAS LAID ON THE JEWS ONLY....

The Word of God makes it quite clear that Sabbath observance was a special sign between God and Israel: "And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine'" (Exodus 19:35).

Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed (Exodus 31:1617). Note: It says; "the children of Israel).

In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the ten commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 1214, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: "And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you (Israelites) to keep the Sabbath day" (Deuteronomy 5:15). (Note: Moses tells us, the Sabbath was given to the nation of Israel).

Notice the word therefore AND "you" (Israel). God's intent for giving the Sabbath to Israel was not that they would remember creation, but that they would remember their Egyptian slavery and the Lord's deliverance. Note the requirements for Sabbath-keeping: A person placed under that Sabbath law could not leave his home on the Sabbath (Exodus 16:29), he could not build a fire (Exodus 35:3), and he could not cause anyone else to work (Deuteronomy 5:14). A person breaking the Sabbath law was to be put to death (Exodus 31:15; Numbers 15:3235).

Szuch77

03.24.2008

@ bibleprobe1

easter vs passover

That is interesting that you state that the word of G-d makes it quite clear who He is refferring too. I think we should take the same line of thinking to the verse you alluded to in your previous post.

Jeremiah 31:31-34:

In this section of verses that discuss the coming new covenant, the word only refers to the house of Israel and the tribe of Judah. What does this mean? Does this mean that there was no new covenant for christians (which I am assuming you mean gentiles when you say christians, please correct me if I am wrong.) No, it was G-d's plan all along to bring both folds together to make one.

We must ask ourselves who are the christians today. Are they Gentiles? I would say no since the original definition of a gentile is dog, pagan. I believe once a person accepts Jesus as the Messiah they have been grafted in to the tribe of Judah (Jesus' tribe).

This is why I believe the whole word of G-d is for all those who believe in Jesus.

bibleprobe1(R)

03.24.2008
(edited by bibleprobe1, 03.24.2008)

@ Szuch77

easter vs passover

Szuch77:

I may be way out in left field here, but I'm just guessing that you are a Seventh Day Adventist. Am I wrong?

It's the SDA's who are behind the scheme to bring Christians screaming and kicking back into the bondage of the Old Testament Law that Jesus set us free from. It is the Seventh Day Adventists who chuck the tradition of the early Christian Church Fathers, because it doesn't fit into their nice little scheme that their prophetess Ellen White set out --which adds up to gaining SDA denominational membership by adding confusion to Christendom. Like spoiled children, SDA's taunt the rich Christian apostolic tradition which does not agree with their contrived theology, by calling it: "traditions of men". SDA's are especially erroneous over the Sabbath, which was clearly given to the Jews --which I have twice above already referenced to you. One problem with that scheme is that the early Church Fathers heard the apostles preach. From this came our traditions which include infant Baptism (which the Apostles practiced) and favoring Sunday as the day of worship; and leaving Saturday to who it was meant for --the Jews.

I've got a message for adherents to Ellen White (SDA), Muhammad of Islam, L. Ron Hubbard (Scientology), Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Science), Charles Taze Russell (Jehovah Witnesses), Sun Myung Moon and Joseph Smith & Brigham Young of the Mormons. Jesus Christ, God Himself on earth, was the last Prophet on this earth.

In case you missed it I'll give it here for a 3rd time.

Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed (Exodus 31:1617). Note: It says; "the children of Israel.

In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the ten commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 1214, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: "And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you (Israelites) to keep the Sabbath day" (Deuteronomy 5:15). (Note: Moses tells us, the Sabbath was given to the nation of Israel).

Szuch77

03.24.2008

@ bibleprobe1

easter vs passover

Actually, not even close. I am a Messianic Jew. A Jew that believes Jesus is the messiah.

I think it is funny that you didn't even touch on my Jeremiah 31 questions or the definition of a gentile.

It is not my goal to bring you under the law, but to follow the instructions of G-d.

And I understood your scripture for the "Third Time". That is why I brought up Jeremiah 31 and being grafted in.

Now how about you actually read Jeremiah 31 and the definition of the term gentile and provide your thoughts.

bibleprobe1(R)

03.24.2008
(edited by bibleprobe1, 03.24.2008)

@ Szuch77

easter vs passover

Szuch77:

I am not reading from these Jeremish passages that Christians are somehow bound by the Old Testament Law which was given to the Jews; and was for the Jews. Not the Messianic Jews mind you. But for the Jews. Those who remain supernaturally blinded. Messianic Jews prefer to keep their Jewish customs - like their Saturday Sabbath. I see no problem with that. Just as Paul saw no problem with that.

Jesus's mission was first and foremost to the "lost sheep of Israel". It is first necessary that Israel recognize their Messiah before this covenent Jeremish speaks of with them occurs. It is only necessary that one party agrees to a "Covenant". But you cannot have a "Covenant" until at the very least both parties recognize each other. The Jews do not currently recognize the "Covenant-giver" Yeshua... So as of now, Messianic Jews and Christians are under the "New Covenant", the New Testament Laws...which are written in the hearts of those who love the Lord.

Paul tells us that the Jews are supernaturally blinded. Once the Lord lifts this "blindness" the Jews will cry out; "Baruch haba b'Shem Adonai".

Again you have instroduced another passage meant for the Jews. The discussion really is that Christians are not bound by Jewish holidays (Passover, Sabbat, etc).

"I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah"

In the verses below that you pointed out, I think Jeremiah is speaking of the coming conversion of the Jews which will be near the time of the Second Coming. Which will not happen until a great portion of the Jews are crying out to Jesus/Yeshua; "Baruch haba b'Shem Adonai". Psalm 118:26 - Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD. Israel is mostly secular today. But that will change drastically at the time of the Second Coming. Messianic Jewish numbers will increase amazingly --and they will assist the Lord in converting the Jews. 144,000.

Jeremiah 31 31-34:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Szuch77

03.24.2008

@ bibleprobe1

easter vs passover

So where then is this new covenant for the gentiles at and where does Jesus state that those who believe in Him should not observe one jot or tittle in the old testament. I assume you follow Jesus teachings, correct? If so, then you are following the old testament, since He wrote it, since He is G-d. Also, where in scripture does G-d state He would have two different ways to Him like you are claiming there is? Is there a way for Jews to be saved and another way for Gentiles? You are separated the two groups where Jesus wants to unify them. We are all one in the same, there is One G-d, One flock, One way to salvation. Why did the apostles preach from the old testament if it was done away with then?

Also, do you believe that all Jews are lost? Do you believe once a Jew accepts Jesus they are no longer a Jew?

I think you need to serious break down all of the men's doctrine that has siloed your thinking and open yourself up to what G-d is stating. He doesn't want you under the law, I agree, but He does want you to follow what He has instructed and put into place.

bibleprobe1(R)

03.24.2008
(edited by bibleprobe1, 04.05.2008)

@ Szuch77

easter vs passover

Szuch77

Yes, Messianic Jews and Christians are the same spiritual people. I'd consider Messianic Jews as "Spiritual Israel", perhaps among the 144,000. Non-believing Jews I look on as "cousins", who I am forever grateful for carrying knowledge of the Lord and the Old Testament down through the ages --in defiance of Satan's many roadblocks.

Jews are not believers so they are not the same "spiritual people". God is dealing with the non Yeshua believing Jews separately in a supernatural way. I point to the banishment by the Romans, the destruction of Jerusalem, and perhaps even the pogroms and the holocaust itself, for how God is dealing with this "stiff necked" people who rejected their own Messiah. We know why they were earlier banished to Babylon.

Yet, God has a Covenant with the Jewish people. He will never abandon them. He has Michael the Archangel watching over them. Thank God for that, because it's quite apparent that George Bush and C. Rice aren't looking out for Israel's interests. Ever since Jimmie Carter (and even back to FDR), America has acted like a whore regarding the apple of God's eye, his Covenant people.

In case you missed it I'll give it here for a 4th time. I am not a "children of Israel". As we know, the "Lost Sheep of Israel" was their Messiah's (Mashiach ben David) main focus/ministry.

Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed (Exodus 31:1617). Note: It says; "the children of Israel.

In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the ten commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 1214, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: "And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you (Israelites) to keep the Sabbath day" (Deuteronomy 5:15). (Note: Moses tells us, the Sabbath was given to the nation of Israel).

Daniel's prophecy - Gospel switches to the Gentiles.

After 490 years exactly to the day, the Gentiles became the main focus because the Jews had missed the time of their own visitation.

GOSPEL SWITCHES TO THE GENTILES AFTER 70th WEEK OF DANIEL

"National Rejection"
The second 3.5 years of the "70th week" was also given to the Jews as a second chance (Acts 1-6), but this 7 years of ministry officially ended when the Jewish Sanhedrin (highest Jewish office) rejected Jesus and His Gospel a second time and they stoned Stephen. Immediately the 70th week ended, and the Gospel then went to the Gentiles. You will recall also, that the great Jewish man named Paul was "recruited" at the end of this 7 years to minister to the Gentiles. His name was changed from the Jewish Saul to the Gentile Paul (Romans 11:13) which signified the new focus. Also, at this time God gave Peter a vision indicating it was now time to preach to the Gentiles (Acts 10:1-28). This has nothing to do with any bogus "replacement theory". God has an unbreakable 1-sided Covenant with the Jews.

Regarding the "abomination of desolation". Jesus was either speaking of the time in 70 AD when his followers were to flee Jerusalem, because the Roman armies under Titus would attack Jerusalem and destroy the 2nd Temple. In Matthew 24:15 Jesus told His followers, "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies (Roman armies) then know that its desolation is near". Why did this happen? In Matthew 23-38 Jesus told the Pharisees: "See! Your house is left to you desolate". That's because of the "abominations" of the Pharisees. Interesting enough, we know from history that Christians took the Lord's advice and had left the city. 1 million Jews were massacred in Jerusalem under Titus. But no Christians were ever reported to have been killed in Jerusalem during that ugly period. So, likely they heeded the Lord's warning to flee.

Or, a better candidate for this is that Jesus was speaking of the pagan monstrosity that sits atop the top of the Temple Mount even today. Of course I am speaking of the Dome of the Rock, built during the 685 to 705 AD period. Jewish Rabbis know this structure makes the temple mount desolate.

An "abomination" is a sin committed before the face of God that causes God to spew the sinner out of His presence. Abominations can only be committed by those who have near access to God, particularly priests but more generally the whole of Israel as the priestly people. When Israel is guilty of "abominations," they are in danger of "desolations." Pharisees and scribes had been putting stumbling blocks ("scandals") in the way of the "little ones" of Israel. The Pharisees were guilty of mocking Jesus and His teachings. Though the Pharisees try to make themselves appear righteous before God, they are in fact abominable. Addressing His disciples, Jesus warns them in very strong terms not to follow their example: Better that they were drowned in the sea, than to cause one to sin.

JEWISH SCHOLARS FAILED MISERABLY IN THE 1st CENTURY:
They failed to see that Jesus Christ was the one predicted by Daniel and He would die in the middle of the 70th week, per Daniel 9:27.

The challenge to us right now, is the same challenge the 1st century Jews had in vis--vis the coming of the Messiah. In retrospect, we wonder how the devout leadership of Israel could have missed these clear signs from prophecy, especially Daniel's prophecy. Yet they did. It wasnt that these Jews were not on the lookout and watching for the signs given in Torah. They were just looking for the wrong kind of signs. They thought there would be something sensational. The Jews of this time wanted a sign from Heaven. What they got was the Word of God, the 2nd person of the Triune God, the builder of heaven and earth Himself. Yet the heavens did give amazing signs also. I recommend you see the scientific documentary on DVD called "The Star of Bethlehem".

THE BOOK OF DANIEL IS AWESOME! It was written by Daniel from a prophecy the angel Gabriel gave him while he and the Jews were undergoing their exile in Babylon. It tells the Jews that God had given them a second chance to return to Israel and rebuild their Temple to get ready to ultimately receive their Messiah (Jesus Christ). It is an actual blueprint to the day Jesus would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey, and the first day (Psalm Sunday) Jesus (a son of David) would allow them to proclaim Him King -- the actual day He would die on the cross - to the actual day (end of 70th week-3.5 years after His crucifixion) that the door would slam shut on the Jews.

DANIEL 9:24-27:

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Szuch77

03.24.2008

@ bibleprobe1

easter vs passover

I believe the root of our disagreement is that I look at anyone who accepts Jesus as their messiah as grafted in to the house of Israel and more specifically the tribe of Judah. Whereas, you look at the Jews and the Gentiles as two distinct groups who have two ways of living out a spiritual life for Jesus. This goes back to my previous point that Jesus' goal was to bring both folds together to create one flock for one G-d. If you look in Romans 2:28-29, it states that a true Jew is on circumcised of the heart not flesh. I take that as anyone who is circumcise is a Jew, spiritually. In this line of thinking gentiles who believe in Jesus would become a part of the tribe of Judah since that is the tribe Jesus is from. You can liken this grafted in as an adoption. When a family adopts a child, the child takes the families name and becomes a part of that family. Same with gentiles. I believe when we come to this realization we will be able to take hold of all scripture as speaking to us directly, especially where it says the house of Israel and the tribe of Judah.

bibleprobe1(R)

03.24.2008
(edited by bibleprobe1, 03.24.2008)

@ Szuch77

easter vs passover

Szuch77:

The Lost Tribes are one great mystery that God has kept secret.

I may be in for one big humungous surprise myself. My name is closely related to Cohanin. Similar to "Meir Kahane's" name. My ancestry is Ireland. Ireland is one interesting area when you get down and look at some of the ancient names for their villages, preponderance of the name Jeremiah, etc. It wouldn't surprise me in the least that my ancestry may turn out to be Jewish due to the wanderings of the lost tribes.

Isaiah says; to the "isles afar off"? Are they descendents of the British Isles, Ireland, the countries of northwest Europe, the United States and even Japan? In an irony to Jewish history, could the tribe of Dan have gone to Greece and later to Rome? Could descendents of Dan have actually been involved with all the holocausts of Jewish history (Greek, Roman, Inquisition and Nazi Germany)? See more on Dan below...

One important link/key is the term Scythians (Celts); "the people who dwell in booths".

Did the prophet Jeremiah (a Chief of Iber) die in Ireland?

Did he travel there in 583-560 BC from Egypt around the same time of the destruction of Jerusalem, with: the scribe Baruch, Ebed-Melech, Tea Tephi (daughter of Zedekiah & heir to the throne-line of Pharez), and the son of the king of Ireland who had been in Jerusalem at the time of the siege? Did Jeremiah come to Ireland to build the nation Israel in the Isles of the West and to plant the royal line of David upon Israels throne in the person of Zedekiahs daughter, Tea Tephi? Tea Tephi is the name of the most celebrated queen in early Irish history. With her the lion came into Irish heraldry, an emblem of the Israelites, but especially of the tribe of Judah. With Tea Tephi also a most remarkable 400 pound stone came to Ireland called the Lia Fail, or stone wonderful, or Stone of Scone upon which the Irish line of kings were crowned until about 500 A.D. Thereafter it was carried to Scotland and used as coronation stone there till 1296 A.D. Then Edward I carried it to Westminster Abbey where it has been ever since, until just recently when it was returned to Scotland, as the Coronation Stone of Great Britain.

Tea Tephi married the Irish monarch, Eiochaid, the Heremonn, thus joining the Pharez and Zarah branches of Judahs royal line, and from them through the Irish and Scotch line of kings one can trace the descent to George VI and show that Davids line did not lapse for Yahweh kept His covenant of salt. (2 Chronicles 13:5)

Was Jeremiah the elderly white-haired patriarch, sometimes referred to as a "saint," who came ashore in Ulster in Irish tradition? Wasn't Jeremiah the grandfather of King Zedekiah (last king of Judah); and thus, God's Trustee of the Bloodline and the Throne of David? From these sources we learn that about 565 B.C., soon after Jeremiah and the kings daughters disappeared in eastern history, there appeared in Ireland at Tara, the seat of the Irish kings, a remarkable and mysterious personage, a prophet named Ollam Fola, who instituted a school of prophets in Ireland. From the number of Hebrew words connected with this mysterious personage he is shown to have been a Hebrew prophet. The only Hebrew prophet who disappeared with any such mission as would take him to the Isles of the West, was Jeremiah, whose bust is in Dublin Castle. The name of Jeremiah remains everywhere in those parts even today.

Legend says Ireland was already populated by Hebrews before Jeremiah's arrival. Long prior to 700 B.C. another strong colony called "Tuatha de Danaan" (tribe of Dan) arrived in ships, drove out other tribes, and settled there. Later, in the days of David, a colony of the line of Zarah arrived in Ireland from the Near East. In light of this, imagine how fruitful the Irish potato famine has proven to be.... Or, is all the above a fabrication started via a book ("England the Remnant of Judah." London, 1861) by British-Israel expositor named Rev. F.R.A. Glover who combined two different people Tea and Tephi from two different time periods? Is the Worldwide Church of God behind furthering this confusion? Or, is it all true??

Also, consider this conflicting legend that there is a strong Jewish tradition that the prophet Jeremiah was stoned to death outside the city walls of Jerusalem - in the place known as Golgotha.

Tribe of Dan

Israel's Biggest Nightmare?


Could the tribe of Dan have gone to Greece via Lebanon and later to Rome?

According to the ancient Greek "story" the Iliad by Homer, the founder of Troy was named Dardanus. Dardanus had a son named Erichthonius, who had a son named Tros, who was the namesake of the ancient Trojans and of their capital city of Troy
.
Tros has three sons, Ilus, Ganymede, and Assaracus. Priam. the reigning kink of the Trojans, was of the line of Ilus. Aeneas, founder of the Roman Empire, was a prince of the royal house of Assaracus. Ganymede was the great-grandson of Dardanus. According to Homer's Iliad (Book V), Zeus kidnapped the prince, Ganymede. Zeus wanted Ganymede to be a special cup-bearer to the gods (which may be a clue to the origin of the legend of the so-called Holy Grail).

The Iliad does not relate how Zeus carried off Ganymede, but there is an ancient Roman mosaic showing Ganymede, the Trojan prince, being carried off by Zeus, who had taken the form of an eagle. Here is a possible clue to connect the progenitors of the ancient Trojans with the tribe of Dan, who had adopted the eagle as their insignia.

Zeus was sometimes pictured as an eagle, but at other times he was pictured as a serpent to whom offerings of honey were made. Here appears yet another clue. We have the symbol of a snake (the first insignia of Dan) to whom offerings of honey were made!! The honey could be a reference to the bees in Samson's riddle. Over the centuries some of the Spartans (earlier populated by Trojans) and Trojans migrated to southern France, and into Germany. In the Apocryphal book I Maccabees there is an account about the Spartans of southern Greece claiming they were related to the Jewish people and were, in fact, the stock of Abraham.

A letter from the king of the Spartans to the Jewish high priest in Jerusalem is most revealing:

"Areus, king of the Spartans, to Onias, the high priest, greetings. It has been discovered in a document concerning the Spartans and Jews that they are brothers, and are of the race of Abraham" (I Maccabees 12:20-21). The first century Historian Flavius Josephus also records this letter in his writings. Four symbols are used in the Bible concerning the Danites; a serpent, an eagle, a lion, and the bees. In the story of Samson we find the famous riddle of the bees who made honey in the carcass of a lion which had been killed by Samson. The symbolic nature of the bees could represent the concept that the descendents of the tribe of Dan would one day try to bring about the destruction of the tribe of Judah, whose symbol was the lion. Of interest, throughout the centuries, the Merovingian (European) royalty have for centuries been tied to the symbol of bees.

When Moses gave his prophecies of the 12 tribes, he said that Benjamin would "dwell between the shoulders of Judah" (Deuteronomy 33:12), and that Dan, "as a lion's whelp, would leap from Bashan" (Deuteronomy 33:22). Bashan was located in ancient Lebanon. That Mosaic prediction came to pass when the tribe of Dan was deprived of its territory adjacent to Judah, moved north to Lebanon, and established its territory in Bashan. From there the Danites made a symbolic leap into obscurity (Europe; Germany? Denmark? Danube River? Irish Tuatha de Danann? Rome? Greece?).

Bobby K(R)

03.27.2008

@ Szuch77

easter vs passover

Szuch 77

Greetings!

I have recently come upon this thread, and I can see that you have wisdom and ideas with which I agree, yet Bibleprobe also has a perspective that must be carefully considered.

It is true that as a Christian, one is indeed grafted into Spiritual Isreal, or as you succinctly point out more specifically, Judah (since that is Jesus Tribe). Yet, you argue that a Christian has to follow The Law that was given to the Jews, and herein lies my concern.

What caused the Jewish council to call Jesus evil or some sort of rebel? Was it not because He broke the Sabbath Law? And when you break one law, you break all of them, do you not? So according to Jewish law, Jesus was indeed a Sabbath breaker, and since he broke that law, and the Jews are justified in killing Him!

(Rom 7:8) but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting: for apart from the law sin is dead.

Are we not taught that in baptism we die in Christ and are dead to sin, or conversely, that sin is dead to us? In other words, we are freed from the law, and are no longer subject to death through sin by breaking it (the law).

Does this then give us license to sin? Of course not! But if we do sin, Christ , the Living God, is able to forgive us and justify us, because in Him now lies our hope, our Salvation! The Law is static, written in stone, and cannot forgive, it can only guide or condemn.

Brother, I admire you for believing that Jesus is the Messiah, but take a hard look at the Law given to the Jews, and where it led them.

God in His Perfection, gave a Perfect Law to imperfect men, so that by these laws, men can be measured. He knew no one could ever keep the law, which is why, in the fullness of time, He sent His Son. The only Man capable of keeping it perfectly, and in Him we put our trust, that by His Grace, we too, may be justified; not by works according to law, but by His Grace!

Peace, Love and understanding to us all!

Bobby K

NAPHTALI

04.05.2008

@ Bobby K

easter vs passover

The Law (of Moses or just as correctly, the Law of trhe Lord cf. 2 Kgs 10:31; 1 Chr 16:40; 22:12; 2 Chr 12:1; 17:9; 31:3f; 34:14; 35:26; Ezra 7:10; Neh 9:3; Ps 1:2; 19:7; 119:1; Isa 5:24; 30:9; Jer 8:8; Amos 2:4; Luke 2:23f, 39
) was simultaneously given to "the "strangers" - i.e. gentiles - who sojourned with them. These chosen ones were to dispense this law throughout the world as well as live by it. The Law of the Lord is the4 Law of Jesus for He is the Lord! When Jesus said: "NKJ John 14:15 " If you love Me, keep My commandments.", He had to be referring to the Law as the "New" Test. had not been written!
It is true the Jews have been blinded to the Messiah and the Gentiles have been blinded to the Torah. JPS Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." The Pharisees et al. added "Fences" around the Law to try to help the people from breaking it. Adding to it became an unbearable burden. So the first wrong as deut Deut 4:2 prophesies was to add to the Law. The saecond wrong is perpetrated mainly by the gentile ekklesia by "diminishing" it by saying it "no longer applies". One must realize that the most often commandment repeated in scri[ture is "You shall have one law"; i.e. covenant.
Blessings NAPHTALI

NAPHTALI

04.07.2008

@ bibleprobe1

easter vs passover Law stipulates it applies to Jews and Gentiles

The Law was NOT only given to nor meant only for observance by Jews its scope, intent and purpose also included the alien or stranger (gentile) who dwelt with the people brought out of Egypt, see: KJVExodus 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you., That there should be one covenant law for Israel and the stranger is the single-most repeated commandment in all of scripture: KJVExodus 12:19, 12:43, 12:48-49, 20:10, 22:21, 23:9, 23:12, 29:33, 30:33; KJVLeviticus 16:29, 17:8, 17:10, 17:12-13, 17:15, 18:26, 19:10, 19:33-34, 20:2, 22:10, 22:12-13, 22:18, 22:25, 23:22, 24:16, 24:22, 25:6, 25:23, 25:35, 25:45, 25:47; KJVNumbers 1:51, 3:10, 3:38, 9:14, 15:14-16, 15:26, 15:29-30, 16:40, 18:4, 18:7, 19:10, 35:15; KJVDeuteronomy 1:16, 5:14, 10:18, 10:19, 14:21, 14:29, 16:11, 16:14, 17:15, 23:7, 23:20, 24:14, 24:17, 24:19-21, 25:5, 26:11-13, 27:19, 28:43, 29:11, 29:22, 31:12, 31:16; KJVJoshua 8:33, 8:35, 20:9. The Gentiles were meant to be grafted into the Ekklesia of Israel (See Septuagint also called the LXX):

Blessings Naphtali

bibleprobe1(R)

04.07.2008
(edited by bibleprobe1, 04.08.2008)

@ NAPHTALI

Easter for Christians + Passover for Jews

The "Stranger" was referring to non-Jews who were living among the Jews in Israel. I do not think it refers at all to Christians.

It just seems to me, Jewish Christians seem to always be trying to draw Christians back into a bondage to the Old Testament Law, and to Jewish customs, including mandatory Sabbath, and animal sacrifice --which was given to and meant for the Jews. Christians have "purged out the old leaven", which was the Old Law (Old Testament) that non-believing (in Christ) Jews are still bound to.

"Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." 1 Corinthians 5:7-8

Paul may have objected to Gentile Christians' adopting of Sabbath and other Jewish holy day observance (See Galatians 4:9-10). Basically Paul is telling us that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament "Law" and set Christians free from its "bondage".

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

The Letter to the Colossians instructed its readers that Sabbath observance was not required (See Colossians 2:16-17). If one wants to do it let them make that decision to return to that "bondage".

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

MANDATORY SHABBAT (SABBATH) OBSERVANCE WAS LAID ON THE JEWS ONLY....IT WAS PART OF THEIR "COVENANT"... Which we know the Jews did not live up to. They missed the time of their visitation. And Worse, they built pagan temples in high places, etc.

The Word of God makes it quite clear that Sabbath observance was a special sign between God and Israel: "And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine'" (Exodus 19:35).

Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed (Exodus 31:1617). Note: It says; "the children of Israel).

In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the ten commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 1214, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: "And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you (Israelites) to keep the Sabbath day" (Deuteronomy 5:15). (Note: Moses tells us, the Sabbath was given to the nation of Israel).

Notice the word therefore AND "you" (Israel). God's intent for giving the Sabbath to Israel was not that they would remember creation, but that they would remember their Egyptian slavery and the Lord's deliverance. Note the requirements for Sabbath-keeping: A person placed under that Sabbath law could not leave his home on the Sabbath (Exodus 16:29), he could not build a fire (Exodus 35:3), and he could not cause anyone else to work (Deuteronomy 5:14). A person breaking the Sabbath law was to be put to death (Exodus 31:15; Numbers 15:3235).

charliebuttons(R)

04.08.2008

@ bibleprobe1

Easter + Passover

Easter came during Purim.
Why is that and what is the meaning of this happening.

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